Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Cyan » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:33 pm

DragonAtma wrote:EDIT: I should add that we all started with little info on the three kingdoms period. My first introduction was RoTK2, so (thanks to the manual) I mispronounced a whole bunch of names.

Dont get me started on that E.G:
DW 3 Cow Cow :lol:

so going by your answer Huang Zu was more then just a Retainer to Biao he was more a Vassal Lord?
also why was Yuan Shu and Liu Biao at war?

and finally one thing that has always in a way been debated was did Cao Cao have the Mandate of Heaven, yet Jian found the seal in the capital, - not sure if fact or not just assuming it is given Yuan Shu later uses it after recieveing it from Ce - why has it as far as I know never been considered that Sun Jian had the mandate by recieveing the seal. (I know this is more a superstitious question but given how the people where in them times it is supprising if it was never considered)
and also was Jian's keeping the seal a sign of Loyalty to the Han(as DW depicts) or was it more a lack of ambition, or lastly given what happened to Shu when he declaired himself emperor Jian realised that people would see him as a usurper?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DragonAtma » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:05 pm

Huang Zu ran Jiangxia commandery; he was semi-autonomous.

Yuan Shu was at war with Liu Biao for two reasons:
(1) Yuan Shu was greedy and ambitious
(2) As the two strongest powers in 191, China became Yuan Shu vs Yuan Shao, with multiple forces lining up on one side or the other (sort of like the US vs USSR cold war, which obviously had more than just the US and the USSR). Yuan Shu's main allies were Tao Qian and Gongsun Zan, while Yuan Shao's main allies were Cao Cao and Liu Biao, so Yuan Shu vs Liu BIao and Yuan Shao vs Gongsun Zan were only natural.

Sun Jian did find the seal in the well, but promptly handed it over to his boss, Yuan Shu. As a result, Sun Ce never had it; it went from the Han emperors to Sun Jian (for an hour or so) to Yuan Shu (for eight years) to Cao Cao.

As for Yuan Shu's declaration, he was arrogant enough that he probably thought he was justified -- even though 99% of china disagreed.

As for the mandate of heaven, there have been debates over it. The Song Dynasty had outright discussions on who had it, as the most natural path from through the Five Dynasties And Ten Kingdoms period (which they eventually decided on) would send the mandate through a corrupt dynasty and then three nonchinese dynasties. And, of course, Cao Cao's descendants never did reunify china...
Unless I specifically say otherwise, assume I am talking about historical Three Kingdoms, and not the novel.

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Cyan » Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:10 pm

DragonAtma wrote:Sun Jian did find the seal in the well, but promptly handed it over to his boss, Yuan Shu. As a result, Sun Ce never had it; it went from the Han emperors to Sun Jian (for an hour or so) to Yuan Shu (for eight years) to Cao Cao.
.


Ah, the way DW portrays it was Jian Kept the seal untill his death to which then Ce gave the seal to Yuan Shu for troops so he could go about getting his own power base

thanks for your answers :)
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:32 pm

Cyan wrote:sorry if my lack of actual knowledge is bothersome but its actually thanks to the DW series I became intrested in this time frame but would like to brush up my knowledge :oops:


I find the majority of people who come into the history/novel of the era do so through DW, secondary would be RTK, third would possibly be novel. I am also one of the DW introduction set but I, of course, was always the wise sage like figure you see before you :P

It isn't bothersome, someone asking questions gets discussions going, we remember our time as asked questions and learnt from the old guard of our time, we like talking about the era.

Just to go further on what Dragon said, history and novel (which DW borrows from in this instance) differ greatly on Sun Jian relationship with Yuan Shu. In history Sun Jian brings his army to fight Dong, joins Yuan Shu (Sun Jian was a minor though noted figure, Yuan Shu a famed well connected figure in the region who could supply him and provide protection) and fights under his banner, single-handedly wins against Dong, finds seal and gives it to his overlord willingly. Remains under Yuan Shu till his death

In novel Sun Jian is a local warlord of the south who turns up, gets seal and tries to leave alliance, Yuan Shao objects and gets Liu Biao to attack the leaving Sun Jian. Yuan Shu uses that to form alliance for his own interests and takes in Sun family after Jian's death, only lets Sun Ce go south to fight Liu Yao due to seal.

and finally one thing that has always in a way been debated was did Cao Cao have the Mandate of Heaven, yet Jian found the seal in the capital, - not sure if fact or not just assuming it is given Yuan Shu later uses it after recieveing it from Ce - why has it as far as I know never been considered that Sun Jian had the mandate by recieveing the seal. (I know this is more a superstitious question but given how the people where in them times it is supprising if it was never considered)
and also was Jian's keeping the seal a sign of Loyalty to the Han(as DW depicts) or was it more a lack of ambition, or lastly given what happened to Shu when he declaired himself emperor Jian realised that people would see him as a usurper?


The mandate of heaven was something of... a flexible concept depending on who was talking about it :wink: Generally the discussions were for Wei (ended famine, conquered most of the land, deposed Han emperor) who then transferred it to Jin (Cao's moral failings meant heaven denied them at Chi Bi, led to early Cao deaths for Pi and Rui, gave Sima's right to depose them and Sima's united land) or Wei never had the mandate (for similar reasons Jin claimed when overthrowing Wei) and Shu did as the legitimate successors of the Han. Wu never really entered the discussion as the south was not a traditional stronghold, didn't come close to winning and couldn't claim Han lineage

The loss of the seal is a bad symbol for the Han but in itself doesn't portray mandate (though of course, useful to add to sense of legitimacy if you plan to declare yourself emperor). History doesn't attack Sun Jian for handing over seal, there wasn't any other real practical option. The novel is negative as Sun Jian has easy option to hand it to the coalition as a whole, he lies about it and makes false oaths
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Cyan » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:08 am

Dong Zhou wrote:The novel is negative as Sun Jian has easy option to hand it to the coalition as a whole, he lies about it and makes false oaths


Could that be in a sense foreshadowing given what happened at Jing considering the Novel is Pro Shu, therefore painting Jian as someone who's false inturn paints the Sun family as false.

on a closely related note did Ou Xing exsist historically and is that how Jian became a Minor figure?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:10 am

From Sun Jian's SGZ biography:

In his youth, he was a civil officer at prefecture level. At the age of seventeen, he travelled with his father by boat to Qiantang. At the time the pirate Hu Yu and his band had robbed merchants of their goods from their base near Baoli, and were dividing up the spoils on the bank. All travellers halted in fear and boats dared not approach. Sun Jian said to his father: “These bandits can be attacked, I request to subdue them.” His father said: “This is not something you can undertake.” Sun Jian went ahead with his blade in hand onto the bank and waved his hands east and west as if he was signalling to detachments of soldiers that were moving to surround the bandits. The pirates sighted this and thinking government troops had come to arrest them, abandoned their loot, scattered and fled. Sun Jian pursued, and only after taking the head of a pirate did he return. His father was greatly startled. From this he became known and the local government office summoned him, appointing him to a temporary military post. The heretic rebel Xu Chang rose at Juzhang and named himself Emperor Yangming. With his son Xu Shao he stirred up various prefectures, and his followers numbered in the tens of thousands. Sun Jian, as the Major of the commandery, recruited the elite and the brave, totalling more than a thousand men and defeated Xu Chang by coalition with the various prefectures of the province. That year was the first year of Xiping [172]. The Inspector Zang Min commended him and an Imperial Edict appointed Sun Jian Assistant Prefect of Yandu. Some years later, he was promoted to be Assistant Prefect of Xuyi and he was reassigned again to be Assistant Prefect of Xiapi.


Sun Jian became a minor official, we think a bit like a police officer, after routing a group of pirates. In this role he crushed a local rebellion lead by Xu Chang. This lead him being recommended to a national post. The way the Han bureaucracy worked was that low level appointments were done on a local but to advance further up the ladder you had to be recommended to the capital and then be posted to a national post in a different area to your home. Rafe De Crispigny talks about it in some depth in chapter 2 of Generals in the South.

By the time Sun Jian fought and killed Ou Xing (who was historical, yes) he'd already taken part in the Yellow Turban Campaign and fought against Han Sui's rebellion in the North-West. Killing Ou Xing reinforced his reputation as a general but he was already in post by that time.

My own question: Who were the two Eunuchs caught communicating with Zhang Jue and what is the evidence for it occurring?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:24 am

Cyan wrote:
Could that be in a sense foreshadowing given what happened at Jing considering the Novel is Pro Shu, therefore painting Jian as someone who's false inturn paints the Sun family as false.

on a closely related note did Ou Xing exsist historically and is that how Jian became a Minor figure?


Quite possibly but also distances Sun's from Yuan Shu

Yep. To add to what Sun Fin said, by the coalition against Dong, Sun Jian was a noted miliatry figure but in rank was Grand Administrator of Changsha and a Marquis for his work against Ou Xing. So Yuan Shu was getting a man noted for his miliatry skills (Dong was a personal fan of Sun Jian's abilities having fought alongside him in Liang, he defended Sun Jian's record to historian Liu Ai) plus brings own army. Sun Jian was getting a protector (Sun Jian had ended up killing an inspector and a grand administrator in dubious circumstances while raising troops, Yuan Shu can ensure no backlash), supplier and a powerful master

Sun Fin wrote:My own question: Who were the two Eunuchs caught communicating with Zhang Jue and what is the evidence for it occurring?


Feng Xu and Xu Feng. It doesn't say how exactly their part of it was uncovered but Tang Zhou revealed the Turban plot inside capital and Han launched major investigation
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:49 am

Thanks Dong :D. Out of interest which source is that from?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Valvatorez » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:19 pm

So I'm wondering how popular/known is Three Kingdoms where you are from? I also specifically wonder how known the Three Kingdoms stuff is in Chinese culture today, do they teach it in schools or at least known?

Where I'm from, New York, it's not popular whatsoever honestly, I might meet people sometimes that have played the Warriors games, but not really any that actually know about the actual history, but this also could be because the extreme vast majority of people I know and am friends with are all younger or under 30-ish. Some people have thought all those characters were made up for the game only.

Also I was wondering where was Zhang Fei in 199-200 when Liu Bei went to Yuan Shao and Guan Yu to Cao Cao? Did he follow Liu Bei or was just kinda hanging around somewhere like Ru Nan?

*Edited for asking question in wrong topic :oops: *
Last edited by Valvatorez on Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:43 pm

This is actually a long thread dedicated to the question of what got members in to the 3K era!

Personally I discovered the Three Kingdoms by playing Dynasty Tactics 2 at a mates house.

I live in the UK where I wouldn't say many people at all know about the period at all. Like you a few of my school friends have played some entries in the DW series as it was quite popular in my group at school. None of them had any further interest in the history though. The university I studied at has a Chinese Studies department which two, now inactive, members of this board attended. As I was there when Red Cliff came out that piqued some interest in the wider department but the history never gained any traction. I've met a handful of people who have read RoTK, perhaps three who were slightly more knowledgeable but that's about it.

I presume Zhang Fei was with Liu Bei but I don't know off the top of my head - this is all Zhang Fei's SGZ has to say on that period:

The Former Lord followed Duke Cao and defeated Lü Bu, returning with the former to Xu. Duke Cao assigned Zhang Fei as a General of the Gentlemen of the Household. The Former Lord turned against Duke Cao and went over to Yuan Shao and then Liu Biao.
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