Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:25 am

I don't think any source says that explicitly but there are hints throughout his SGZ like:

Lü Bu was an adept archer and rider and his arm strength was unmatched


Right from the beginning, Lü Bu was received warmly by Si Tu (I) Wang Yun, as he knew Lü Bu to be among the strongest in the province.


The novel, Romance of The Three Kingdoms , as I understand it is the moment when Lu Bu was elevated to being the undisputed champion of the period. Up until that moment I suspect he was the forerunner of a handful of potential greats.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:11 pm

Thanks Sun!

However, here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4030&start=10180

Dong Zhou claims that the Sgz considers Lü Bu to be the strongest in his era...
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:18 pm

Well that first quote does say 'his arm strength was unmatched' which I guess does mean he was considered the strongest warrior by his peers.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:16 pm

Han wrote:Thanks Sun!

However, here: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4030&start=10180

Dong Zhou claims that the Sgz considers Lü Bu to be the strongest in his era...


That is generally how sgz line
Lü Bu was an adept archer and rider and his arm strength was unmatched. He was nicknamed the “Flying General”.
is seen. Unmatched strength of arm would indicate he was considered the strongest in his time
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby capnnerefir » Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:29 pm

Taking that line kind of literally, don't you think? ;)
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Taishi Ci 2.0 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:25 pm

I don't think we can necessarily state from his SGZ that Lü Bu was indisputably the strongest warrior of the era. He could very well have been, but I don't think we can say with certainty either way.

Of the two lines mentioned, the first one about his arm strength is 膂力過人 "The strength of his arms was more than human." Certainly a superlative description, but there are a couple of other people described in similar terms:

Cao Zhang: 膂力過人 "The strength of his arms was more than human."
Wang Ling's sons Wang Feixiao and Wang Jinhu: 並才武過人 "Their skill at fighting was more than human."
Dong Xi: 武力過人 "His fighting strength was more than human."

過人 is meant more in the sense of "more than human, surpassing others, exceptional" than to suggest an exclusive quality. Nor is it merely a term for physical description; several strategists in SGZ are mentioned as being 過人 in terms of their strategic thinking.

Regarding the line about Wang Yun, his estimation of Lü Bu was as 州里壯健 "a strong fellow within the province (that Chang'an was in)". Again, certainly approving of his strength, but not necessarily exclusive.

But if you were to pick out any one person from the era to be the World's Strongest, Lü Bu would certainly be a top contender. And his story has more to it than most folks known simply for their physical prowess.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:47 pm

Sure, since the line is apparently not unmatched (which was indicating nobody of his time is able to match it ergo the strongest) as original translator had it but "more then human" which as you say is usual kind of exaggerated praise, then I withdraw that claim.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Thu Nov 09, 2017 4:45 pm

What historical evidence is there of Cao Cao being related to Xiahou Dun and Xiahou Yuan?

Was Cao Cao the head of the Cao clan in Pei during the Yellow Turban period?( Before he raised troops)

Likewise who was the head of the Xiahou clan?

Were Xiahou Dun and Xiahou Yuan brothers or cousins?

Cao Cao was known to show Xiahou Dun special favour, but what about his personal relationship with Xiahou Yuan, Cao Chun, Cao Hong, Cao Ren, Cao Xiu and Cao Zhen?

Did Cao Cao view the other Caos( Chun, Hong, Ren, Xiu, Zhen) as brothers, cousins, nephews, or " just a talented dude who happen to be in the same clan as me"?

How much influence did these surbodinates Caos have( and differ) from the beginning of the GuanDong alliance to the end of Cao Wei compared to other surbodinates that are NOT regents( the Simas)?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:31 pm

Below is a post I wrote in this topic a few months ago Han (If you want the context the discussion is on this page). Hopefully it starts to answer your first question.

Also I don't know if you know of Carl Leban? The source I'm referring to here is his PHD thesis entitled Ts'ao Ts'ao And The Rise Of Wei: the Early Years.

The basic premise of the post is that Leban doesn't think they are related whereas Rafe in his more recent book Imperial Warlord argues they are. I however don't own Rafe's book so the post is based from my memory reading the book one morning in SOAS' library.

Sun Fin wrote:Carl Leban's arguments against them being related are largely based on three factors. I have his text in front of me so I'm checking what I type. When it comes to Professor De Crispigny's arguments I am going to be relying on memory, a far less reliable source!

1) When Chen Shou wrote the SGZ he makes no mention of Cao Cao being related to the Xiahou clan.

Rafe's argument is that he doesn't need to say it because it is so well known that it was presumed knowledge, additional to that the Xiahou clan was discussed in the same chapter as the Cao clan. In his opinion clear proof that they were related.

2) Cao Cao allowed his children to marry members of the Xiahou clan which Leban believes would have been inappropriate if Cao Cao was a close relative to the Xiahou clan.

This is where I'm particularly hazy on Rafe's arguments (if anyone has access to his book please feel free to correct me!), but I think it's based around the fact that actually 2nd cousins was deemed appropriate by the culture of the day. Besides Cao Cao was powerful enough to ignore tradition if he so wanted to.

3) The Xiahou clan were so powerful that they wouldn't have been willing to have a son adopted by a despised eunuch.

Rafe argues that the gentry were in turmoil at this time, and the Eunuch faction was in almost complete control of the court. Any sensible political player would have taken advantage of a connection with a power Eunuch who could then be relied to to treat their family with favour.

As I said earlier in the post if anyone wants to add or correct me they are very welcome to do so! :D
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:40 pm

Thank you very much Sun! This was a great help!


But what about the heads of the Cao and Xiahou clan?

And can it be confirmed that Xiahou Dun and Xiahou Yuan are cousins?

What about Cao Cao personal relationship with Xiahou Yuan, Cao Chun, Cao Hong, Cao Ren, Cao Xiu and Cao Zhen?

Did Cao Cao view the other Caos( Chun, Hong, Ren, Xiu, Zhen) as brothers, cousins, nephews, or " just a talented dude who happen to be in the same clan as me"?

How much influence did these surbodinates Caos have( and differ) from the beginning of the GuanDong alliance to the end of Cao Wei compared to other surbodinates that are NOT regents( the Simas)?
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