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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:30 pm
by Dong Zhou
DragonAtma wrote:
Han wrote:Grand Martial Progenitor- Taizu Wu HuangDi

Cao Cao was given this title due to his conquest(martial)
He was named the Grand Progenitor as he was the one who set the foundation of Wei.

Former/First Soverign/Ruler- This title was given to Liu Bei to differentiate him from Liu Shan who was know as Later/Latter Soverign/Ruler


More specifically, it's to deny Liu Bei and Liu Shan being part of the Han dynasty (something Liu Bei claimed); if they accepted Liu Bei's claim, then Liu Bang would be First Ruler, and Liu Bei would be Twenty-Seventh Ruler or so (this skips Gengshi, the Prince of Changyi and both of Eastern Han's Emperor Shaos, as they're not usually counted).


I agree with you but I'm trying to find a source for Han on that.

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:31 pm
by Han
Why didnt Liu Shan give Liu Bei a temple name?

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:18 pm
by Xu Yuan
To my knowledge he did, Zhaolie is Liu Bei's temple name.

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:20 pm
by Fornadan
Zhaolie was his posthumous title, it's not quite the same as temple name.

For example, Cao Cao's posthumous title was Wuhuangdi, his temple name was Taizu

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:37 am
by Rezko_Kanashi
Was Dong Zhou always considered a jerk throughout his life. I've read that he was actually quite a good man before he became a Tyrant.

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:24 pm
by Dong Zhou
The histories pretty much give Dong a kicking as the big bad (there are some stories literally invented to give Dong a kicking or "our guy forsaw Dong's evil") but he seems to have had a nasty temper. Dong's SGZ indicates he was a chivalrous youth and gained a reputation as a skilled general, when he took power he did show some restraint on rewarding his friends and a lot of his reforms make some sort of sense even if his regime was probably brutal as he attempted to restore government authority and shore up his own legitimacy.

Liu Biao in the days of Dong Zhuo

Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:42 am
by Shao Shanshu
Dong Zhuo appointed Liu Biao inspector of Jingzhou when the latter was adjutant in the Northern Army. Liu was sent to replace Wang Rui who had earlier been killed by Sun Jian after the coalition had been formed.

I've got several questions about him.

1) Was Liu Biao in Luoyang when he was appointed? Or was he somewhere else with the Northern Army?
2) Did Liu Biao participate in the coalion? A biography at the Kongming Archives says: "Armies from various prefectures in the Guan Dong region were raised and punitive expeditions were sent against Dong Zhuo. Liu Biao too, led his Jing Zhou troops and stationed them at Xiang Yang." It is not said explicitly that Liu led the troops against Dong Zhuo, yet the word "too" brings some confusion.
3) If Liu Biao did not participate in the coalition, what was his attitude to Dong Zhuo?

Thank you.

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:36 am
by Dong Zhou
1) Probably in capital as former clerk to He Jin

2) Liu Biao went to a very divided Jing with two men so was rather busy bringing it under control so was unable to intervene on either side

3) Not recorded. He was appointed to Jing by Dong, he did pay tribute to Li Jue for extra rank so wouldn't say hostile

Imperial Seals

Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:58 pm
by Shao Shanshu
Professor Rafe de Crespigny in "To Establish Peace" mentions there were six imperial seals (beside the famous one lost and supposedly found by Sun Jian).

Given the vast numbers of the Han bureaucracy, was there a special official designated as the Keeper of the Seals?

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 9:43 am
by Sun Fin
How would important officers have shown that orders came from them during the period? Would they have had a signature or a seal or something else?