Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:40 am

Was there a famine during Cao Cao Xu province massacre? Cao Cao massacres happened from 193 to 194 while Xun Yu sanguozhi say that famine happened at 195.

So... Can someone give me a detailed explanation?

Preferably with a reliable Chinese source and a reliable Western source.

Thank You.
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
User avatar
Han
Changshi
 
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:14 pm

The 195 famine is the Lu Bu invasion of Yan one. ZZTJ here
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 16070
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:16 pm

So was there ANY famine during Cao Cao two invasions of Xu?
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
User avatar
Han
Changshi
 
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:25 pm

Not in the ZZTJ, at least in Xu, river red with blood but not famine. Was a famine in Qing due to Yuan Tan vs Tian Kai's two year long war with pillaging
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 16070
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:40 pm

Ah I see. I was reading two tumblr that seem to indicate that Cao Cao Xu pillage involved famine, and so the number of people he killed was grossly exagerrated.

Your thoughts?
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
User avatar
Han
Changshi
 
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:43 pm

When there is a literary flourish like rivers red with blood or not a blade of grass grew (like the Qing famine), I tend to treat that as somewhat overselling it but none the less it indicates there was a major issue/famine/defeat. So while I don't think the river literally ran red with blood, I do think the massacres happened and I haven't seen anything to suggest they weren't sizeable killings.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 16070
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:05 pm

Oh yeah I almost forgot. The two tumblrs are:

https://the-archlich.tumblr.com

and

https://daolunofshiji.tumblr.com
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
User avatar
Han
Changshi
 
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:57 pm

I don't know daolunofshiji. Archlich is great in s/he gets people interested in the histories, is very readable, intelligent, some good insights (and some not so good) but is the sort of source where someone will come on off it and we end up having to explain Zhuge Liang didn't create the histories. In fairness, that last post indicates a toning own of the anti-Zhuge stuff quite a bit and a lot of the problems were a few years back so hopefully it is better
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 16070
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:31 pm

The archlich is kinda intelligent. But the assumptions he makes boggle my mind and just make me laugh. Like how he says Guan Yu left Cao Cao because he felt unappreciated of not receiving a higher rank, which is ridiculous considering the fact that Guan was given a higher rank under Cao then under Liu.
Liu Bei did nothing wrong.
User avatar
Han
Changshi
 
Posts: 386
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:46 pm

Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:07 pm

Han wrote:The archlich is kinda intelligent. But the assumptions he makes boggle my mind and just make me laugh. Like how he says Guan Yu left Cao Cao because he felt unappreciated of not receiving a higher rank, which is ridiculous considering the fact that Guan was given a higher rank under Cao then under Liu.


From the glimpses I have seen, archlich has a habit of "I like this figure so s/he is wonderful, brilliant beyond compare, utterly virtuous" and (particularly with Shu figures) "I don't like so and so, every act gets twisted towards evil intent"

If I was going to write a bad narrative on that moment, would go for the Lady Du incident
explanation
(Guan Yu wanted said lady, wouldn't shut up about it so Cao Cao checked her out when they defeated Lu Bu, Cao Cao married her)
leading to rift, Guan Yu being petty yada yada but not sure how I would explain away the actual records. By all accounts Guan Yu was treated well, there seems no hint of bitterness of the manner of his departure anywhere, amicable leavings did happen (minority of occasions being amicable but it did happen) so isn't like this is a big outlier. Guan Yu leaving due to disenchantment just doesn't line up
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 16070
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved