Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DragonAtma » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:30 am

Cao Cao's neice married Xiahou Yuan's son, while Cao Cao's daughter married Xiahou Dun's son -- so if Cao Cao and Xiahou Dun/Yuan were cousins, then they were both marriages between second cousins.

But then again, Xu Kun was the son of Sun Jian's sister, which means that Sun Quan and Xu Kun's daughter Lady Xu were first cousins, once removed. So it's possible Cao Cao and Xiahou Dun/Yuan were indeed first cousins.
Unless I specifically say otherwise, assume I am talking about historical Three Kingdoms, and not the novel.

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DragonAtma » Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:00 pm

Okay, quick question: where did Liu Zhang's sons (Liu Xun and Liu Chan) wind up after 219-220? Sites are inconsistent on who went to Shu and who ended up in Wu.
Unless I specifically say otherwise, assume I am talking about historical Three Kingdoms, and not the novel.

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:47 pm

Rafe's Biographic Dictionary says:

Liu Chan:

Liu Chan accompanied him [Liu Zhang] to exile in the Jing Province. When Sun Quan's army conquered the region in 219, Sun Quan restored Liu Zhang to his title as Govener of Yi province, and after Liu Zhang's death he named Liu Chan as Inspector.


Liu Chan appears to have had a bit of a career in Wu, being sent to the border during Yong Kai's rebellion against Shu and received the rank of Imperial Censorate of Wu.

Liu Xun:

Pang Xi persuaded him [Liu Bei] to allow Liu Xun to remain in Yi province, and Liu Xun later became General of the Household for the Equipage at the Court of Shu-Han


Hope that's helpful Dragon!
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DragonAtma » Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:10 pm

Yes, definitely helpful -- thanks!
Unless I specifically say otherwise, assume I am talking about historical Three Kingdoms, and not the novel.

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby PeanutButterToast » Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:40 pm

How early did women marry in the Later Han era? I read that that Zhang Fei abducted Xiahou Yuan's 12-13 year old niece and forced her into marriage sometime around the year 200. Would that really be acceptable back then? I wonder how the other two brothers might have felt about the matter.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:53 pm

Arranged marriages seems to be general rule of thumb

Yes, Zhang Fei kidnapped Yuan's niece and when it turned out who she was, I think it was more a quick arrangement. It wouldn't have been a great image for Liu Bei's army and I doubt Liu Bei was pleased at the embarrassment but given Gua Yu tried to steal another man's wife and they would have known Zhang Fei's violent tendencies, not sure they would have been particularly discomforted.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby PeanutButterToast » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:48 am

Dong Zhou wrote:Arranged marriages seems to be general rule of thumb

Yes, Zhang Fei kidnapped Yuan's niece and when it turned out who she was, I think it was more a quick arrangement. It wouldn't have been a great image for Liu Bei's army and I doubt Liu Bei was pleased at the embarrassment but given Gua Yu tried to steal another man's wife and they would have known Zhang Fei's violent tendencies, not sure they would have been particularly discomforted.


I can imagine that arranged marriages were a thing. I am just not sure if 12 or 13 was still an acceptable age.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby waywardauthor » Thu Jul 06, 2017 4:49 pm

PeanutButterToast wrote:
Dong Zhou wrote:Arranged marriages seems to be general rule of thumb

Yes, Zhang Fei kidnapped Yuan's niece and when it turned out who she was, I think it was more a quick arrangement. It wouldn't have been a great image for Liu Bei's army and I doubt Liu Bei was pleased at the embarrassment but given Gua Yu tried to steal another man's wife and they would have known Zhang Fei's violent tendencies, not sure they would have been particularly discomforted.


I can imagine that arranged marriages were a thing. I am just not sure if 12 or 13 was still an acceptable age.

It would have been a little young, but there were people of that age waging war in the armies and odds are they would be married off by 16 at the latest for most of the higher strata.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Fornadan » Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:24 pm

PeanutButterToast wrote:
Dong Zhou wrote:Arranged marriages seems to be general rule of thumb

Yes, Zhang Fei kidnapped Yuan's niece and when it turned out who she was, I think it was more a quick arrangement. It wouldn't have been a great image for Liu Bei's army and I doubt Liu Bei was pleased at the embarrassment but given Gua Yu tried to steal another man's wife and they would have known Zhang Fei's violent tendencies, not sure they would have been particularly discomforted.


I can imagine that arranged marriages were a thing. I am just not sure if 12 or 13 was still an acceptable age.

It was basically the lowest limit. Supposedly Sima Yan, Emperor Wu of Jin, was to marry his son Sima Zhong to Jia Chong's second daughter, Jia Wu. At the time Zhong was 13 sui and Wu was 12 sui. But Wu was too small to fit the wedding dress, so he married the elder daughter, Nanfeng, who was 15, instead.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby PeanutButterToast » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:32 pm

waywardauthor wrote:
PeanutButterToast wrote:
Dong Zhou wrote:Arranged marriages seems to be general rule of thumb

Yes, Zhang Fei kidnapped Yuan's niece and when it turned out who she was, I think it was more a quick arrangement. It wouldn't have been a great image for Liu Bei's army and I doubt Liu Bei was pleased at the embarrassment but given Gua Yu tried to steal another man's wife and they would have known Zhang Fei's violent tendencies, not sure they would have been particularly discomforted.


I can imagine that arranged marriages were a thing. I am just not sure if 12 or 13 was still an acceptable age.

It would have been a little young, but there were people of that age waging war in the armies and odds are they would be married off by 16 at the latest for most of the higher strata.
People would be fighting at age 12? Wow I knew they'd be young but dang son that's still a child.

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