Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:27 pm

Probably an incredibly stupid question but would houses of the era have had doors?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby capnnerefir » Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:08 pm

Sun Fin wrote:Probably an incredibly stupid question but would houses of the era have had doors?

They did have doors. We know this because while all of the doors from the era (being made of wood) have rotted away, we've found doorknockers dated to that era. We've also found stone doors inside of tombs, and there are doors depicted in artwork from the era.

From the surviving examples (namely the stone doors) Han dynasty doors were hinged like modern ones (not the sliding doors that became common in Japan, as they are often depicted in media).
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:24 pm

Thanks Cap! Your knowledge is marvelous!
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Iain » Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:03 pm

capnnerefir wrote:Of course, it's also entirely possible that he had usury with anesthetic (thus the lack of pain or discomfort) and was just being inconsiderate by forcing his officers to eat and drink with him while he had the operation. He was, after all, known for his discourtesy.
You know some people just handle pain and discomfort better than others, I had a dental operation where the injections wore off and I just put up with the pain till they were finished. And I think Guan Yu's men if they were as loyal as they seemed would be honoured to watch their commander having such a brave operation it would be something to talk about to people for years to come.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:13 pm

Would people of the Later Han/3K era believed in demons? If not what would have been an appropriate equivalent?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Fornadan » Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:53 pm

Ghosts and evil spirits perhaps?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby capnnerefir » Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:03 pm

Zhang Lu's SGZ says (of his mother):

By reason of her teachings about demons and spirits, Zhang Lu's mother was a frequent visitor at Liu Yan's house


de Crespigny adds:

I render the phrase guidao as "teachings about demons and spirits." The term gui is not necessarily pejorative here, and it frequently appears in descriptons of the Zhang group and the Five Dou of Rice Sect.


From this, we can certainly infer that there were - if nothing else - common superstition about "demons" or whatever you want to call such supernatural beings. While it probably wasn't common among the academics (sects like Zhang Lu's were heretical to the official state religion), beliefs like this probably thrived among the uneducated and superstitious.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:02 pm

capnnerefir wrote:Zhang Lu's SGZ says (of his mother):

By reason of her teachings about demons and spirits, Zhang Lu's mother was a frequent visitor at Liu Yan's house


de Crespigny adds:

I render the phrase guidao as "teachings about demons and spirits." The term gui is not necessarily pejorative here, and it frequently appears in descriptons of the Zhang group and the Five Dou of Rice Sect.


From this, we can certainly infer that there were - if nothing else - common superstition about "demons" or whatever you want to call such supernatural beings. While it probably wasn't common among the academics (sects like Zhang Lu's were heretical to the official state religion), beliefs like this probably thrived among the uneducated and superstitious.


Thanks guys, that's really helpful :D
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby ivolga » Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:28 am

1. What happened to lady Zou after Wancheng? If her historical fate is unknown, are there any unreliable (e.g. folklore) versions?


2. Loyalty to the lord vs loyalty to the family: which was considered more important at that time? And what happened when they clashed?
As far as I understand, from the Confucian point of view, the family relations should have been valued higher (e.g., Xu Shu changing sides because of his mother).
Yet there are cases when members of the same clan, or even brothers served different warlords and were on different sides in conflicts: Zhuge Jin and Zhuge Liang, Xun Chen and Xun Yu.

Are there other examples of close relatives serving opposing warlords?
In such cases, were they distrusted because of doubts in their true allegiance?
And, according to the ethics of that time, what should be the ideal behavior in such situation: to forget about family relations and continue to serve their respective lords, or to leave the service?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DragonAtma » Wed Feb 15, 2017 10:11 pm

There are, mainly because of circumstances. This is probably not an exhaustive list, but...

* Yuan Shao and his brother Yuan Shu were obviously on opposite sides.
* Yuan Tan and Yuan Shang were ALSO on opposing sides.
* Liu Qi and his brother Liu Cong never came to blows (due to Cao Cao's actions), but if he didn't interfere there's a good chance they would have.
* Gao Gan briefly defected to Cao Cao while Cao Cao was still fighting his cousin Yuan Shang.
* Cao Cao hired Yuan Yuanchang in an attempt to convince his son Yuan Chunqing (a relative of Yuan Shang and defender of Ye) to defect.
* He Jin was the leader of the anti-eunuchs side, while his half-sister (Empress He) and foster-brother (He Miao) were both on the pro-eunuch side.
* Pang De served in Wei, while his brother Pang Rou was in Shu (IIRC one of them was sick and couldn't travel while the other one did).
* Yang Biao was serving Cao Cao at the time his brother-in-law Yuan Shu declared himself emperor.
* Liu Zhang and his second son Liu Chan (not to be confused with Liu Shan!) were relocated to Jingzhou after the surrender; they wound up serving Wu while his oldest son Liu Xun remained with Shu.
* Xiahou Ba was on bad terms with Guo Huai and afraid of Sima Yi to the point where he defected to Shu (while the other Xiahous stayed with Wei).
* Sun Chen shenanigans caused most of Quan Cong's descendants to defect to Wei. Remember, Quan Cong's wife (and likely their ancestor) was Sun Quan's daughter, Sun Luban.
* Sun Hao was afraid Sun Kuang's grandson Sun Xiu (not THE Sun Xiu, of course, but a different one) was a threat; he tried to arrange Sun Xiu's assassination, but Sun Xiu caught on and defected to Jin.
* Huang Quan's retreat was cut off in the Yiling campaign, so he was forced to surrender to Wei; Liu Bei blamed himself, so Huang Quan's family was well-treated (and stayed in Shu)
* Guo Yuan fought and died for Yuan Shang in 202, while his uncle Zhong Yao served Wei (and eventually became one of the three excellencies!).
* Technically it's a decade after the Three Kingdoms reunite, but no less than eight of Sima Yi's descendants slaughtered each other in an attempt to become regent for the incapable Sima Zhong (hence "War of the Eight Princes").
* I should add that Zhuge Liang & Zhuge Jin's cousin Zhuge Dan never left Xu when young, so he served Wei (giving them all three kingdoms!).

Finally, there were also cases of marriage alliances failing (e.g. Sun Kuang married Cao Ren's daughter while Cao Zhang married Sun Ben's daughter).

EDIT: I needed sleep at the time, so I managed to miss two major family splits.
* Yu Jin surrendered to Shu during the Battle of Fancheng (and later wound up in Wu), while his family stayed in Wei. He didn't, however, actively serve them.
* Mi Fang surrendered to Wu during the Battle of Yiling, while his brother Mi Zhu stayed in Shu.

And, of course, there were undoubtedly tons of cases where low-ranked families were split.
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