Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby wk123 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:42 am

Dong Zhou wrote:Chen Shou noted during Liu Shan's resign
Guan Yu, Zhang Fei, Ma Chao, Pang Tong, Huang Zhong and Zhao Yun were all subsequently compensated with a title during Liu Shan’s time and this title rewarding was deemed as a great honor
, Pang Tong doesn't quite fit the same comments of bravery so Chen Shou doesn't make it six tiger generals. Note the generals are all in the same period whereas Wei Yan and Wang Ping came into play later. Zhao Yun had saved Liu Shan's life, served Liu Bei through difficult times, helped take Yi and Hanzhong including possible empty city plot, gave advice, noted bravery in battle
Thumbs up on Zhao Yun, thanks for reminder on his path to Tiger. Sometimes we all take those 95+ Power stats for granted without remembering why!

Love Pang Tong, died way too soon.

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:59 am

Those stats are probably to do more with novel and cultural reasons then history based
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:19 am

Rotk games always heavily overrate the Shu officers lmao
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby ValHellen » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:21 pm

Hi, I have a question. How prominent were merchants in the politics of Three Kingdoms?

I'm a reader of this manhwa called Ravages of Time and in it, Sima Yi's clan as well as the Shan clan Zhang Chunhua came from were depicted as a family of merchants. I couldn't find any historical reference to that so I assume it's mostly a reimagining of the author, but it did get me curious of the positions of merchants in the era.

From what I understand, the Chen (Chen Deng, Chen Gui) and Mi clans (Mi Zhu, Mi Fang, Lady Mi) were famous and wealthy clans. Mi Zhu even at some point personally financed Liu Bei's war efforts. There was also Wang Lang who financed Yan Baihu against Sun Ce, but they were also government officials so I imagine their wealth came from probably salaries/taxes and bribes. Would they also engage in trades? Were they merchants?
Last edited by ValHellen on Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:53 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby waywardauthor » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:38 pm

There's a bias against those not of the scholar-gentry with regards to the historical records, and almost all of them tend to go without note unless there was some nefarious connection to a big event. We see, perhaps, some of the most influential leaders in an entire province getting a couple of lines of text. For instance we know that the Yuan clan remained quite influential under the Sun family, and one of their daughters was an important women in Sun Quan's life, but apart from that we know nothing. Yuan Shao was also a head of a large clan, but apart from his children and his famous cousin, the rest of the family goes into obscurity without us really being given any definitive information. Smaller actors are overlooked unless they cause trouble or are in some juncture of events. Odds are merchants were exceptionally important, but the uncertainty of the period led many of them to bandwagon with military forces or to join military forces themselves. The Sun family is probably the most detailed example we get, and the status of being descended from Merchants gets very little attention. It would be safe to assume that they were involved in a nested patronage system, where they performed vital roles, but had limited controlling power.

Ravages of Time is a good read, assuming you power through the early chapters and their assorted weirdness.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:21 pm

The Ravages of Time is absolutely phenomenal.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:35 pm

During the Later Han the important families with scholarly backgrounds and famous ancestors most likely looked down on merchants in the same way they did farmers and everyone else.

However during periods of chaos like the Three Kingdoms ability suddenly becomes a lot more important. Even allowing the great-grandson of a Eunuch (Cao Pi), the grandson of a man who was likely a merchant (Sun Quan) and a sandal maker (Liu Bei) to rise to become Emperors.

EDIT:

waywardauthor wrote: The Sun family is probably the most detailed example we get, and the status of being descended from Merchants gets very little attention.


We don't actually know that the Sun clan were merchants. That theory comes from folklore where Sun Zhong (we don't even know his name for certain) grew and sold melons.
Last edited by Sun Fin on Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby ValHellen » Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:26 pm

Thanks for the very fast reply waywardauthor. Also thank you Sun Fin for the clarification. I did remember Liu Bei himself was a sandal maker but it seemed like it has little to do with his rise to power. I never knew the Sun clan may have descended from a merchant, even if by folklore. You learn something new every day.

I think merchants didn't get much respect in Western records either, so I'd think it was the same for China. I just found it fascinating that some clans that aren't so prestigious as Yuan had their wealth drawn to attention, such as the Mi. It made me wonder if their wealth came as much as from their governmental ranks as it was from business acumen. Would be cool to see how ancient China do investments.

And yes, Ravages of Time is a superb read. One of my most favorite comics definitely.

waywardauthor wrote:For instance we know that the Yuan clan remained quite influential under the Sun family, and one of their daughters was an important women in Sun Quan's life, but apart from that we know nothing.

Is this the same Yuanji that was on Blast? I couldn't find much about her online but I did remember assuming she's related more to Yuan Shu given the Sun clan's ties to him, though I didn't think to look it up some more before. What's her story?

In fact while I'm at it, might as well find out about all the other Blast ladies that I couldn't find info on.

Cuishi (Wei)
Liushi (Wu)
Xishi (Shu)
Fengshi (Others)

Who are these women? Xishi especially is interesting given how battle-ready she looks, but when I googled for her all I found was Xi Shi of the Four Beauties, which is obviously not her. I also could figure out that Shu's Zhugeshi is definitely Zhuge Liang's daughter, but that was all I know. If anyone can tell me more about her I'd really appreciate it.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby capnnerefir » Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:59 am

ValHellen wrote:Is this the same Yuanji that was on Blast? I couldn't find much about her online but I did remember assuming she's related more to Yuan Shu given the Sun clan's ties to him, though I didn't think to look it up some more before. What's her story?


Yuan Shu's daughter. After Yuan Shu's death, she took shelter with Liu Xun in Lujiang. When Sun Ce conquered Lujiang, she came into the Sun family's control. Eventually, she became one of Sun Quan's concubines and raised several of his children. She was later offered the chance to become empress, but she declined because she had no children of her own. She was later a victim of slander.

Lady Cui was the niece of Cui Yan and wife of Cao Zhi. She was executed for dressing wrong.

Lady Xi was the wife of Sun Yi (Sun Jian's third son). Sun Yi was assassinated by rebels in Danyang. She plotted with Sun Yi's loyalists and avenged her husband.

I don't know who the others are supposed to be.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby ValHellen » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:15 am

capnnerefir wrote:She was later a victim of slander.

Slanders by Sun Luban?

capnnerefir wrote:Lady Cui was the niece of Cui Yan and wife of Cao Zhi. She was executed for dressing wrong.

How wrong did she dress to warrant execution? Serious question.

capnnerefir wrote:Lady Xi was the wife of Sun Yi (Sun Jian's third son). Sun Yi was assassinated by rebels in Danyang. She plotted with Sun Yi's loyalists and avenged her husband.

That's Lady Xu. This is Lady Xi who's affiliated with Shu rather than the Sun clan. I knew the story of Xushi so I didn't ask about her.

If anyone can fill in for her and the others, you're welcomed to.
Last edited by ValHellen on Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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