Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:43 am

Lu Xun had operated as a sub-commander under Lu Meng during the Jing invasion. He did have some experience.

I also agree with DaoLun, Liu Bei's study under Lu Zhi would have no doubt centred around the classics of which The Art of War and one.
Last edited by Sun Fin on Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:46 am

Han wrote:
How would Cao Pi have even seen how Liu Bei's camps were set up? Did he have spies run around drawing pictures of the camps of a battle that his faction wasn't a part of? Doesn't seem likely that Cao Pi would have such up to date information on a battle so far away.


Thats highly likely. Spies were commonplace throughout the entirety of the Civil War. Furthermore, it was possible that Sun Quan did gave Cao Pi up to date information considering that he was a Wei vassal then.

There are experienced generals in Wu's army (less so in Shu) and the only guy who spots it is Lu Xun, not even Liu Bei saw the danger. Yet Cao Pi, who is miles and miles and miles off, whose miliatry skills were not comparable to either man (or many in his Wei court, who fail to spot this) spots it?

I think it more likely Wei was trying to big up Cao Pi there. I think it is entirely possible he said something like Liu Bei has been bogged down so will lose but a spot on analysis with amazing timing?


Cao Pi being an inferior general to the both of them doesnt mean he was a bad military strategist. Liu Bei was a peasant so it was likely he did not read the military texts of Ancient China. It was highly possible that those in Wei court did notice it but it wasnt recorded.

Why not? His spies may have inform him on how Liu Bei set up his camps and then Pi himself arrived at that conclusion. Just because other people didnt arrive at that conclusion[ or it was unrecorded] doesnt mean Pi definitely could not.


Source on 3kingdom spies proving such accurate and timely information on miliatry formations of other armies?

Cao Pi wasn't a good miliatry strategist either. As others have said, Liu Bei was very well educated, add that he had shown an ability with tactics and strategy that Cao Pi never did and had decades of expirence. I doubt Wei figures had the information to make such a prediction if Wu's figures didn't

greencactaur wrote:Hmm I suppose Cao Pi's knowledge of the encampment is questionable. I just find it surprising that Lu Xun was given such a big role despite the fact (as far as I'm aware) he did not possess any actual experience. I suppose the mindset was Sun Quan couldn't compete with Liu Bei and probably saw it as his "Final" hope.


Lu Xun had risen through the ranks fighting bandits and Shanyue, he had played a key role in invasion of Jing. He lacked a certain name recognition at the time but he did have the expirence

Sun Quan was not particularly worried about Liu Bei's invasion. He had the resources to handle Liu Bei, plenty of experienced miliatry commanders if Lu Xun failed and was on the defence so could wait things out.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:21 pm

How far away was Luoyang from Zhang Jue's headquarters in Ji province and how long would it take to travel there?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Lord_Cao_Cao » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:26 pm

Well, modern-day Luoyang and Guangzong (at least that's where Zhang Jue died) seem to be around 430km apart from each other. Google Maps says, today you'd need around 86 hours or 3 1/2 days on foot (non-stop) to get there. Not sure how helpful that is with regard to ancient China. :lol:
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:27 pm

So his head took an 86 hour long parade? Fun! :D
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Lord_Cao_Cao » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:48 pm

I guess his head was delivered on horseback, so it might have taken shorter than that. :mrgreen:
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:33 pm

Source on 3kingdom spies proving such accurate and timely information on miliatry formations of other armies?

Cao Pi wasn't a good miliatry strategist either. As others have said, Liu Bei was very well educated, add that he had shown an ability with tactics and strategy that Cao Pi never did and had decades of expirence. I doubt Wei figures had the information to make such a prediction if Wu's figures didn't


The purpose of spies is to know how deployment of army works. Wei spies would definitely be able to record where Liu Bei encamped his army and somehow pass the information to Cao Pi. The details did not need to be exact. But just how long the camps were and where the camps were placed would be pretty easy.

He was pretty decent. His campaigns were never massive failures. In fact you dont have to be a good strategist to recite something from the Art of War. Fair enough, but Liu Bei never had experience fighting in forested areas AFAIK. Liu Bei also never had Cao Cao as his father... Well, Wu figures seem to be frustrated and were on a losing streak. Emotions were running high which could cloud their judgement. Cao Pi enjoyed the benefit of judging the situation comfortably based off his spies reports on Liu Bei deployment. This would allow him to come to a quicker and better conclusion in comparison to others.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:29 am

Han wrote:
The purpose of spies is to know how deployment of army works. Wei spies would definitely be able to record where Liu Bei encamped his army and somehow pass the information to Cao Pi. The details did not need to be exact. But just how long the camps were and where the camps were placed would be pretty easy.

He was pretty decent. His campaigns were never massive failures. In fact you dont have to be a good strategist to recite something from the Art of War. Fair enough, but Liu Bei never had experience fighting in forested areas AFAIK. Liu Bei also never had Cao Cao as his father... Well, Wu figures seem to be frustrated and were on a losing streak. Emotions were running high which could cloud their judgement. Cao Pi enjoyed the benefit of judging the situation comfortably based off his spies reports on Liu Bei deployment. This would allow him to come to a quicker and better conclusion in comparison to others.


I get the theory but source on such accurate information of an an army in a way one isn't involved in happening in 3 kingdoms?

You rate him more highly then I do then. It's true ability to recite doesn't require ability but being able to actually apply it does, Pi never showed that real ability to turn reading it into successful implementation whereas Liu Bei did.

Cao Pi didn't inherit his father's miliatry skill just like Liu Bei's heir didn't. These experienced generals who shown more strategy then Cao Pi all lost their heads? While nobody in Wei other then Pi noticed? Sorry, don't buy it
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:11 am

Lord_Cao_Cao wrote:Well, modern-day Luoyang and Guangzong (at least that's where Zhang Jue died) seem to be around 430km apart from each other. Google Maps says, today you'd need around 86 hours or 3 1/2 days on foot (non-stop) to get there. Not sure how helpful that is with regard to ancient China. :lol:


Thanks mate! An approximate was all I really needed :D
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:19 am

I get the theory but source on such accurate information of an an army in a way one isn't involved in happening in 3 kingdoms?

You rate him more highly then I do then. It's true ability to recite doesn't require ability but being able to actually apply it does, Pi never showed that real ability to turn reading it into successful implementation whereas Liu Bei did.

Cao Pi didn't inherit his father's miliatry skill just like Liu Bei's heir didn't. These experienced generals who shown more strategy then Cao Pi all lost their heads? While nobody in Wei other then Pi noticed? Sorry, don't buy it


Zhuge Ke once sent spies to record down strategic points. Wei not being involved in the war doesnt mean they cant sent spies to record accurate information on Liu Bei deployment. Heck, if anything, Cao Pi would have definitely sent spies prior to the campaign or during the campaign due to being occupied with domestic affairs because of his recent enthroment. It was in his interest to do so. I still dont see how it would be difficult for Wei spies to record down Liu Bei deployment? Just the camps and location. No mention of the generals or troops numbers. This is entirely believable. And this is recorded in the SGZ and ZZTJ. No antiquity or mordern historian has ever question the validality of Cao Pi claim. So source that its a Wei propaganda?

Sure. Again, Liu Bei never fought in forested areas or swamps before his eastern campaign. Liu Bei also suffered many decisive defeats throughout his entire career. Cao Pi never. Just because Liu Bei choke, doesnt mean Cao Pi would too.

The difference is that Cao Pi has been in Cao Cao campaigns since at the latest Wancheng. He also had experience dealing with local rebellions and had friendships with intelligent people like Sima Yi. Sure, why not. They were too busy fighting against Liu Bei and throwing tantrums at Lu Xun while getting rekt by Liu Bei. Just because Cao Pi told his officials doesnt mean his officials did not already know. In fact, it might only be a few officials that did not have military experience that was attending to Cao Pi at that time. Or maybe some knew but Cao Pi spoke up before they could. Or maybe they were busy being occupied by discussing other matters like domestic affairs which were more of a concern at that time.
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