Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:02 am

That is how the Xun Can row has been interpreted.

From what I recall (leaving aside the Xun row), the powerful Xun family don't seem to have acted against the Han loyalist portrayal, I also can't recall the Professor Rafe essay on Xun Yu but I could back then so might have been something there.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sat Apr 07, 2018 11:10 am

Kushan Embassador wrote:Hi everybody! I have just joined this forum so this is my first post :D .

Well, since a time ago I have been wondering about the situation of the Western Regions and the Chinese military colonies garrisioning strategic networks in the Tarim Basin during the period between the rise to power of Dong Zhou and the annexation of that territories to the Cao Wei state :| . Until which I have just read for myself, it seems that the Han troops in that area were rough frontier warriors with many years of experience in that troublesome regions where they should have to fight frequently against the little legit minor Iranian kingdoms and the Nomads who ravaged the Chinese frontier posts looking out the roads and the oasis. And that these soldiers were under the command of "Chief Officer of the Western Regions" or Wuji colonel who received orders from the governor of Dunhuang.

So who was the commander or commanders who held these positions when Dong Zhou took the power in the capital¿ Were they isolated of the events from the first years of dissolution of the Eastern Han authority having to face for themselves the defense of the frontier or they also took part in the fight in the Central Plains sending troops (even foreign warriors from the minor Central Asian kingdoms subjects to the Han like Shanshan and Yanqi) to the capital¿

Below a map of this region and some of the sources that I have find about this matter:

http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History/Di ... nguo_1.JPG

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Off ... ite_note-3

https://en.unesco.org/silkroad/sites/si ... %20han.pdf

http://sino-platonic.org/complete/spp17 ... rn0206.pdf

http://www.sino-platonic.org/complete/s ... region.pdf


Sorry I missed this. The Cambridge History of China Volume 1 has a section on the Western Regions during the Han Dynasty. In the relevant chapter Yu Ying-Shih says that 'from 91 to 101 Later Han exerted its most secure control over the Western Regions'. The way he shows this is that more than 50 states sent hostages to Luoyang with tribute. A page later he says that 'From 108 BC till the end of the dynasty in A.D 220, numerous hostage princes had been sent to the Han court from the tributary states.' Therefore we know that some relationship continued to exist until at least 220 AD. However what that relationship looks like after 131 AD and the expansion of the agricultural garrisons this source is a little vague. I hope that is helpful.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby greencactaur » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:45 am

In the battle of yiling between shu and sun it's said cao pi predicted liu beis loss after seeing how liu bei was encamped. Why is it that both luxun and cao pi saw a flaw in liu beis position/camp setup, yet liu bei himself did not?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:31 pm

greencactaur wrote:In the battle of yiling between shu and sun it's said cao pi predicted liu beis loss after seeing how liu bei was encamped. Why is it that both luxun and cao pi saw a flaw in liu beis position/camp setup, yet liu bei himself did not?


Lu Xun was the only one in the two armies to see it, Cao Pi's claim of seeing it is... questionable and I'm not sure it is taken seriously by historians.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:35 pm

That is how the Xun Can row has been interpreted?


Oh? How so?

Lu Xun was the only one in the two armies to see it, Cao Pi's claim of seeing it is... questionable and I'm not sure it is taken seriously by historians.


Really? Why is it questionable? Cao Pi claims suit what is written in the Art Of War which Cao Pi must surely have read.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Tue Apr 10, 2018 2:00 pm

Han wrote:
That is how the Xun Can row has been interpreted?


Oh? How so?

Lu Xun was the only one in the two armies to see it, Cao Pi's claim of seeing it is... questionable and I'm not sure it is taken seriously by historians.


Really? Why is it questionable? Cao Pi claims suit what is written in the Art Of War which Cao Pi must surely have read.


How would Cao Pi have even seen how Liu Bei's camps were set up? Did he have spies run around drawing pictures of the camps of a battle that his faction wasn't a part of? Doesn't seem likely that Cao Pi would have such up to date information on a battle so far away.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:44 pm

Han wrote:
Oh? How so?


Bear in mind that, as I understand it, Xun Can's lines get analysed and reanaylzed for deeper meaning and context. Particularly his lines about his wife and women generally. So you can guess there are about ten versions of "Hi, my name is Xun Can" :wink:

In this case, Xun Yu's sons felt Xun Yu gave up his life for something he believed in, an honourable Confucian gentleman and so on. Xun Can the non-Confucian who felt the old ways were untrue was saying Xun You was superior for adapting to the change of dynasty, he didn't make a fatal stand but kept quiet and discreet.

Or of course, Xun Can often rowed with his brothers and Xun Can was simply winding them up.

Really? Why is it questionable? Cao Pi claims suit what is written in the Art Of War which Cao Pi must surely have read.


There are experienced generals in Wu's army (less so in Shu) and the only guy who spots it is Lu Xun, not even Liu Bei saw the danger. Yet Cao Pi, who is miles and miles and miles off, whose miliatry skills were not comparable to either man (or many in his Wei court, who fail to spot this) spots it?

I think it more likely Wei was trying to big up Cao Pi there. I think it is entirely possible he said something like Liu Bei has been bogged down so will lose but a spot on analysis with amazing timing?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:00 pm

How would Cao Pi have even seen how Liu Bei's camps were set up? Did he have spies run around drawing pictures of the camps of a battle that his faction wasn't a part of? Doesn't seem likely that Cao Pi would have such up to date information on a battle so far away.


Thats highly likely. Spies were commonplace throughout the entirety of the Civil War. Furthermore, it was possible that Sun Quan did gave Cao Pi up to date information considering that he was a Wei vassal then.

There are experienced generals in Wu's army (less so in Shu) and the only guy who spots it is Lu Xun, not even Liu Bei saw the danger. Yet Cao Pi, who is miles and miles and miles off, whose miliatry skills were not comparable to either man (or many in his Wei court, who fail to spot this) spots it?

I think it more likely Wei was trying to big up Cao Pi there. I think it is entirely possible he said something like Liu Bei has been bogged down so will lose but a spot on analysis with amazing timing?


Cao Pi being an inferior general to the both of them doesnt mean he was a bad military strategist. Liu Bei was a peasant so it was likely he did not read the military texts of Ancient China. It was highly possible that those in Wei court did notice it but it wasnt recorded.

Why not? His spies may have inform him on how Liu Bei set up his camps and then Pi himself arrived at that conclusion. Just because other people didnt arrive at that conclusion[ or it was unrecorded] doesnt mean Pi definitely could not.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:39 pm

Han wrote:
Liu Bei was a peasant so it was likely he did not read the military texts of Ancient China. .


Just throwing this in here, Liu Bei was a student of one of the Han's finest scholars in Lu Zhi, as was Gongsun Zan. I have no doubt in my mind that Liu Bei was either involved in reading military texts at this time, or in the span of time between then and his forming of his band.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby greencactaur » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:28 am

Hmm I suppose Cao Pi's knowledge of the encampment is questionable. I just find it surprising that Lu Xun was given such a big role despite the fact (as far as I'm aware) he did not possess any actual experience. I suppose the mindset was Sun Quan couldn't compete with Liu Bei and probably saw it as his "Final" hope.
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