Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:56 am

Han wrote:Sincere apologies.

You are right I was too harsh on Guan Yu. But at the same time Im just puzzled why his contemporaries put him in such a high pedastal although Guan Yu has a middle record of Generalship at best.

I love Shu Han alot. Really. Liu Bei, Guan Yu and even Zhang Fei who I labelled as a rapist in the past. But at the same time, with Liu Bei we know his reputation is backed up by factual histories that actively cite their sources. With the latter two, the online commmunity of the 3K either worship them or demonize them and it just gets frustrating. But yeah, I was too harsh.


In my humble opinion I find Guan Yu fascinating. Despite the fact that he was active for only a few years less then Liu Bei, his biography is about a fifth of the length. The only reason that makes sense to me personally (again this is a guess) is that a chunk of his career was either not recorded or lost to history.

His bio has gigantic gaps in time while the Wei bios mention their victories over him (makes sense bios tend to gloss over losses) The fight against Wen Ping and Yue Jin is something that I find odd personally. Guan Yu was apparently sent by Liu Bei to aid Zhou Yu by defending against Wei reinforcements, according to Wen Ping's bio they fought and defeated Guan Yu....then apparently went home? Surely their attack was to relieve Cao Ren and drive off Zhou Yu but as far as I am aware no bio records Wen Ping and Yue Jin attacking Zhou Yu. If they did then surely they would have lost as Zhou Yu eventually won that battle but no Wu bio records that battle. Why would they simply turn around after driving off Guan Yu? Perhaps they took a large amount of losses and despite winning they knew that they were in no shape to continue? We have no idea and will never know.

I personally would love to know what happened during the huge gaps in time in Guan Yu's bio and find out more about how he ruled Jing, sadly that will never be.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:31 am

Never say never, we might find a tomb with histories written by Shu's much maligned history department! It's unlikely but not impossible...
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:48 pm

Han wrote:Sincere apologies.

You are right I was too harsh on Guan Yu. But at the same time Im just puzzled why his contemporaries put him in such a high pedastal although Guan Yu has a middle record of Generalship at best.


It's a good puzzle that we will never solve. I imagine some of it is due to Guan Yu having force of personality, some of it his great strength but yes, there is a very confusing difference between "loses, loses, old lady vs Guan Yu army and Guan Yu loses, loses, oh look another loss" and the way Guan Yu's presence impacted thinking of those around him. It does feel like something is missing
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Elitemsh » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:54 pm

I am of the opinion that Guan Yu was a great fighter and a very good governor. I don't think Liu Bei supported Guan Yu enough. Liu Bei depleted Guan's military too much (because he couldn't take Yi quick enough or maybe the likes of Yan Yan were doing well. and he later took away his most loyal and best fighting men (Zhang Fei, Zhao Yun. I don't think this left Guan Yu with much at all. This is why Lu Meng took part of Jing in 215. Wu just had more men on this occasion. This wasn't Guan's fault. Guan Yu did very well to build the strength of his army enough to feel confident actually launching an invasion 4 years later.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:39 am

When was the Zhao Yun Bie Zhuan recorded? Excluding Pei Song Zhi and Si Ma Guang, are there any other notable historians, Eastern or Western, Past or Present that used or source the Zhao Yun Bie Zhuan?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:21 pm

I haven't heard any details about authorship or when it was made. Off the top of my head, Professor Rafe's encyclopaedia and generals of the south (in relationship to Lady Sun) mention it
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:35 pm

The ZYBZ is an anonymous biography, there is no set date to when it was written but it was almost certainly between the time of the SGZ's completion and Pei Songzhi's annotations in which he appended the fables onto Zhao Yun's SGZ.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby CaTigeReptile » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:42 pm

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:His bio has gigantic gaps in time while the Wei bios mention their victories over him (makes sense bios tend to gloss over losses) The fight against Wen Ping and Yue Jin is something that I find odd personally. Guan Yu was apparently sent by Liu Bei to aid Zhou Yu by defending against Wei reinforcements, according to Wen Ping's bio they fought and defeated Guan Yu....then apparently went home? Surely their attack was to relieve Cao Ren and drive off Zhou Yu but as far as I am aware no bio records Wen Ping and Yue Jin attacking Zhou Yu. If they did then surely they would have lost as Zhou Yu eventually won that battle but no Wu bio records that battle. Why would they simply turn around after driving off Guan Yu? Perhaps they took a large amount of losses and despite winning they knew that they were in no shape to continue? We have no idea and will never know.


What do you mean went home? Unless I'm mistaken, Yue Jin and Wen Pin were at Jiangling the whole time, they just drove off Guan Yu's reinforcements before going back to Jiangling to continue the defense against Zhou Yu that was eventually called off because Cao Ren thought it wasn't worth it (because Zhou Yu managed to give off the appearance of not being about to die from his arrow wound).
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:54 am

CaTigeReptile wrote:
LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:His bio has gigantic gaps in time while the Wei bios mention their victories over him (makes sense bios tend to gloss over losses) The fight against Wen Ping and Yue Jin is something that I find odd personally. Guan Yu was apparently sent by Liu Bei to aid Zhou Yu by defending against Wei reinforcements, according to Wen Ping's bio they fought and defeated Guan Yu....then apparently went home? Surely their attack was to relieve Cao Ren and drive off Zhou Yu but as far as I am aware no bio records Wen Ping and Yue Jin attacking Zhou Yu. If they did then surely they would have lost as Zhou Yu eventually won that battle but no Wu bio records that battle. Why would they simply turn around after driving off Guan Yu? Perhaps they took a large amount of losses and despite winning they knew that they were in no shape to continue? We have no idea and will never know.


What do you mean went home? Unless I'm mistaken, Yue Jin and Wen Pin were at Jiangling the whole time, they just drove off Guan Yu's reinforcements before going back to Jiangling to continue the defense against Zhou Yu that was eventually called off because Cao Ren thought it wasn't worth it (because Zhou Yu managed to give off the appearance of not being about to die from his arrow wound).


Yue Jin and Wen Pin as far as I know were sent as reinforcements for Cao Ren, though Wen Pin bio is super vague. It simply says
Together with Yue Jin, Wen Pin led a punitive expedition against Guan Yu at Xunkou where he succeeded.


After that there is this a few lines down.
Again, he went and attacked Guan Yu’s supplies at Hanjin, burning his boats at Jingcheng.


There is no time frame given as to when these attacks happened however Yue Jin's bio gives better context.

Yue Jin was stationed at Xiang Yang. From Xiang Yang, Yue Jin launched attacks at Guan Yu and Su Fei and both were forced to retreat.


So Yue Jin was stationed in Xiang Yang so it stands to reason that Wen Pin was there too. So the most likely scenario was that as Cao Ren was being siged in Jiang Ling Yue Jin was sent with Wen Pin to relieve Cao Ren. Gaun Yu and Sui Fei were sent to stop them and were defeated. After that Yue Jin and Wen Pin just turned around and went back to Xiang Yang for seemingly no reason.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby CaTigeReptile » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:34 am

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:
CaTigeReptile wrote:
LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:His bio has gigantic gaps in time while the Wei bios mention their victories over him (makes sense bios tend to gloss over losses) The fight against Wen Ping and Yue Jin is something that I find odd personally. Guan Yu was apparently sent by Liu Bei to aid Zhou Yu by defending against Wei reinforcements, according to Wen Ping's bio they fought and defeated Guan Yu....then apparently went home? Surely their attack was to relieve Cao Ren and drive off Zhou Yu but as far as I am aware no bio records Wen Ping and Yue Jin attacking Zhou Yu. If they did then surely they would have lost as Zhou Yu eventually won that battle but no Wu bio records that battle. Why would they simply turn around after driving off Guan Yu? Perhaps they took a large amount of losses and despite winning they knew that they were in no shape to continue? We have no idea and will never know.


What do you mean went home? Unless I'm mistaken, Yue Jin and Wen Pin were at Jiangling the whole time, they just drove off Guan Yu's reinforcements before going back to Jiangling to continue the defense against Zhou Yu that was eventually called off because Cao Ren thought it wasn't worth it (because Zhou Yu managed to give off the appearance of not being about to die from his arrow wound).


Yue Jin and Wen Pin as far as I know were sent as reinforcements for Cao Ren, though Wen Pin bio is super vague. It simply says
Together with Yue Jin, Wen Pin led a punitive expedition against Guan Yu at Xunkou where he succeeded.


After that there is this a few lines down.
Again, he went and attacked Guan Yu’s supplies at Hanjin, burning his boats at Jingcheng.


There is no time frame given as to when these attacks happened however Yue Jin's bio gives better context.

Yue Jin was stationed at Xiang Yang. From Xiang Yang, Yue Jin launched attacks at Guan Yu and Su Fei and both were forced to retreat.


So Yue Jin was stationed in Xiang Yang so it stands to reason that Wen Pin was there too. So the most likely scenario was that as Cao Ren was being siged in Jiang Ling Yue Jin was sent with Wen Pin to relieve Cao Ren. Gaun Yu and Sui Fei were sent to stop them and were defeated. After that Yue Jin and Wen Pin just turned around and went back to Xiang Yang for seemingly no reason.


You're right, it does say Xiangyang, which is a ways north of Jiangling. From what I can gather, Xunkou is closer to Xiangyang than it is to Jiangling. Hanjin is also in Xiangyang. So I was totally wrong.

But even if they were sent to reinforce Jiangling, there's a rather good reason to go back to where they were stationed: because that's where they were stationed. As it is, though, it looks like they might not have actually been sent to Jiangling at all.
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