Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Jia Nanfeng » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:03 pm

Lord_Cao_Cao wrote:
Jia Nanfeng wrote:In 299, Jia Nanfeng plotted against Sima Yu and had him write, in a drunken state, that he was making sacrifices to the "Northern Sovereign". More specifics can be read in Taishi Ci 2.0's ZZTJ Book 83 translation.

The ZZTJ commentator Hu Sanxing says that the "the Northern Sovereign was the Northern Emperor (Xuanwu)."

My question is: Who, or what, exactly, is the Northern Emperor Xuanwu?

Quick research makes me think it's the Black Tortoise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Tortoise

That makes a lot of sense! Thanks for the help.

It may also partially explain why I keep coming across stories in the Soushen Ji and elsewhere about people wearing tortoise shells. :P
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:58 am

Chen Shou's appraisal on Cao Cao and Liu Bei is avaliable on the internet. Where can I find his appraisal on Cao Pi, Cao Rui, and Liu Shan?

Also... What was Cao Pi temple name? Shi Zu or Gao Zu? Wikipedia contradicts itself...
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DragonAtma » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:27 pm

Wikipedia's Gaozu disambiguation page says that Cao Pi's temple name was originally Gaozu, but was later changed to Shizu. It also says that Liu Yuan (founder of Han Zhao) originally had the temple name of Gaozu, but it was changed to Taizu.
Unless I specifically say otherwise, assume I am talking about historical Three Kingdoms, and not the novel.

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:51 pm

Interesting... Is it known who change his temple name? Was it considered improper?

Also... Chen Shou's appraisal on Cao Cao, Sun Jian, Sun Ce and Liu Bei is avaliable on the internet. Where can I find his appraisal on Cao Pi, Cao Rui, Sun Quan and Liu Shan?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Fornadan » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:34 am

I don't think anyone have translated these to English
Translations from the Book of Jin: http://bookofjin.tumblr.com/index
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:56 pm

The appraisals are t the end of their sgz's, those sgz's that aren't translated don't tend to have Chen Shou's appraisal translated either. I don't know if the ZZTJ comment after Cao Rui
The Emperor was grave and firm of purpose, perspicacious and nimble-minded. He acted in accordance with the dictates of his mind. [1] He measured and selected the meritorious and competent, nor did he allow the true and false to be confused. He put aside and did away with superficial show. When he employed his armies in campaigns, or discussed and decided important matters of State, his counselors, ministers and generals without exception wondered at his great mind. By nature he possessed a particularly tenacious memory. The service records, personal character, and the fame and accomplishments of his meanest attendants, as well as the names of their fathers and elder brothers, their sons and younger brothers—once he chanced to hear or read these, he did not forget them to the end. He was patient with disagreeable and vexing things, and would admit straightforward admonitions. He listened patiently to his officials and to the common people. He allowed his gentry and commoners to send in letters, even to the amount of tens and hundreds in a month. Even when their style and diction was unpolished and vulgar, he would still read them to the end, without being bored with them.”
died is Sima Guang or someone else's appraisal

ZZTJ does have Chen Shu's appraisal of Cao Pi
"Wen-di was endowed by nature with literary talent; to compose, he had only to apply his writing-brush. He was widely read and had a strong memory; his talents and accomplishments were equally comprehensive. Had he added to these a quality of breadth and greatness, and given encouragement through sincere fairness and openness of mind, exerting his will to preserve the Way and broaden his power and heart, he would hardly have been far removed from the worthy sovereigns of antiquity."
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:51 am

Thanks!

Is Liu Bei leaving his close friend Gongsun Zan considered a betrayal if one considers the fact that they have a close relationship and Gongsun Zan and Tao Qian had a loose alliance.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:36 am

Han wrote:Thanks!

Is Liu Bei leaving his close friend Gongsun Zan considered a betrayal if one considers the fact that they have a close relationship and Gongsun Zan and Tao Qian had a loose alliance.


The texts don't use terms like betrayal, people within his own time didn't use it to attack Liu Bei and it doesn't tend to end up on lists of betrayal. I don't know if it isn't seen as betrayal, people feel we don't know enough about an's attitude to comment or just not thought about much

When it was discussed on this forum, I believe views were split. I would say it is a betrayal but it is one I would have done "Wait, your offering me a chance to leave a tyrant and get a promotion? Where do I sign?"
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:23 am

Wasnt Liu close buddies with said tyrant? By the way why do you consider Gongsun a tyrant?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:57 pm

Han wrote:Wasnt Liu close buddies with said tyrant? By the way why do you consider Gongsun a tyrant?


Yep, Zan was as an elder brother when the two were students.

Alas we have lost the great chinahistory forum essay on the Liu Yu/Zan war

He plundered his own people during disagreement with his superior Liu Yu, overkill of Liu Yu's officer core (after false charge of treason against the Han loyalist), ZZTJ general attack
When Gongsun Zan had killed Liu Yu, he held all the territory of You province, and his ambition became ever greater. He took advantage of his ability and strength, he felt no pity for the people, he recorded faults and forgot good work, and he took revenge for no more than an angry look.

He used the law to bring harm to scholars and gentlemen of quality and to all those looked upon with greater respect than he was himself, while any man of ability was treated harshly and sent to exile in poor and bad territory. When he was asked why, Gongsun Zan replied, "Those gentlemen think they are all so virtuous that favours come to them by right. They have no gratitude for anything I do." His true favourites were merchants and common fellows, whom he treated like brothers and accepted as relatives by marriage. These men were bullies, and the people hated them.


The first bit is tyrant bit, second bit granted is gentry whining but the mass revolt and collapse of his own army indicates he did lack popularity
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