Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby capnnerefir » Fri Mar 03, 2017 4:49 pm

ivolga wrote:That's what has been posted here:
There is an alternative, but highly unlikely, explanation: the SGZ biography proper only states that he died during a campaign against Sun Quan, opening up the possibility that he actually died during the 217 campaign instead of the 214 campaign, which would push his service up to 21 years.
However, this is very unlikely because an excerpt from Weishu identifies the campaign in question as the 214 campaign specifically. This is rather ironic because, as stated, it is the Weishu itself that is also the source of the “traveled with Xun Gongda for 20 years” quote.


When asking my question here, I didn't notice that SGZ indeed doesn't give an exact date: "攸從征孫權,道薨。" - it just says that Xun You died on the road to Sun Quan. So, how reliable is that date from Weishu, I wonder...

We can assume that the Weishu date is accurate. The Weishu was the official compilation of Wei's court records, so it would certainly have basic information like that correct.

ivolga wrote:This issue with dates is perhaps related to another thing in Xun You’s bio that puzzles me:
In 213 Xun You was among those who urged Cao Cao to take the title as Duke of Wei, and after that Cao Cao appointed him Director of Secretariat of Wei. As far as I understand, this position meant staying at the capital and managing civil affairs (that’s what Xun Yu did, after becoming Director of Secretariat of Han - he stopped accompanying Cao Cao on campaigns).
It is believed that with such appointments, Cao Cao was creating a copy of the Han government to ease the transition from Han to Wei. That’s why the position of Director of Secretariat of Wei doesn’t seem to be purely decorative in this case - most likely, Xun You was expected to have his hands full with actually managing Han->Wei transition and creating a functional copy of Han administration.

So it has always seemed strange to me: why does Xun You leave to a campaign almost immediately after receiving such an important civil appointment?


I can clear that up.
At the time, Han still had its own secretariat, which was based in Xu city and kept the day-to-day of the government working while Cao Cao personally ruled from Ye and issued all of his commands from there. Xun Yu was in charge of Han's secretariat from 196-212 (although in 212 he accompanied Cao Cao on campaign and died en route). Hua Xin replaced him.

Wei's secretariat was an entirely separate entity that functioned as part of Cao Cao's personal staff. So it isn't particularly odd that he'd bring Xun Yu with him on campaign.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby greencactaur » Sat Mar 04, 2017 1:04 am

I know historically Jiang wei and zk relationship was very different, but did Zk historically move jiangs mother after jieting?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:04 am

No, Jiang's mother remained in Wei and even wrote to him asking him to return if I recall rightly
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby greencactaur » Sat Mar 04, 2017 5:09 pm

That's interesting. Did Jiang Wei ever write back to his mother? How did Zhuge feel about Jiang historically? Did he actually trust him at all?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:05 pm

I don't believe the bio ever said either way.

Zhuge Liang, bar the usual "this guy who joined us who I had never heard of before is greatest person ever" stuff, did seem to see Jiang Wei as a talented officer, used for training troops mostly
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby greencactaur » Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:46 pm

So the father-son mentor-apprentice type relationship is very exaggerated in the novel then? What was Jiang's relationship with other generals historically? Wei Yan , ma su, Wang ping etc ? In the novel Jiang and Wei Yan seem to sometimes butt heads with one another.

Also I remember reading that Jiang Wei had a sworn brother who also joined him in his defection to shu, who was he, and what roles did he play in shu government/army?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby waywardauthor » Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:10 am

greencactaur wrote:So the father-son mentor-apprentice type relationship is very exaggerated in the novel then? What was Jiang's relationship with other generals historically? Wei Yan , ma su, Wang ping etc ? In the novel Jiang and Wei Yan seem to sometimes butt heads with one another.

Also I remember reading that Jiang Wei had a sworn brother who also joined him in his defection to shu, who was he, and what roles did he play in shu government/army?

I'm sure Dong Zhou will sweep in to answer you shortly, but I thought I should make a comment first. The real history of the situation is notoriously difficult to piece together, and often times understandings of relationships between individuals is predicated on how we see a word or two. You can find essays and pages on the interpretation of a paragraph, or even a sentence. The novel is a fictionalized re-imagining of the civil war that incorporates folkloric traditions. I do not think Luo ever made much of his writings up, but rather conveyed oral tradition and record alike. It is possible that there is some truth to novel interpretations, but not to any degree that can be argued with certainty.
Alone I lean under the wispy shade of an aged tree,
Scornfully I raise to parted lips a cup of warm wine,
Longingly I cast an empty vessel aside those exposed roots,
And leave behind forgotten memories and forsaken dreams.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:31 am

The student teacher thing was a narrative advice, Jiang taking over from Zhuge Liang made better link then "and decades later, Shu returned to war under the leadership of a guy Liang thought was talented." I belive the sworn brother thing was a novel invention

Relationships are hard to answer. We get a peek of Jiang's personality in the sgz but of the personalities, we only really really see in terms of policy: he allied with Chen Zhi and Huang Hao meaning vs Qiao Zhou faction, his generals like Zhang Yi and Liao Hua were frustrated by his policy, Jiang Wei was widely unpopular by the end. We don't get a sense of personal friends
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby ivolga » Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:19 pm

capnnerefir wrote:I can clear that up.
At the time, Han still had its own secretariat, which was based in Xu city and kept the day-to-day of the government working while Cao Cao personally ruled from Ye and issued all of his commands from there. Xun Yu was in charge of Han's secretariat from 196-212 (although in 212 he accompanied Cao Cao on campaign and died en route). Hua Xin replaced him.

Wei's secretariat was an entirely separate entity that functioned as part of Cao Cao's personal staff. So it isn't particularly odd that he'd bring Xun Yu with him on campaign.

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby greencactaur » Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:54 am

is there any information on the amount of farmers, city livers, and just hermits that existed? How common was it to live in a house hold separated from society? Based on a percentage
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