Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:08 am

It put Liu Bei at a disadvantage though. Peasants can move a lot slower than an army. If he had abandoned the peasants then he probably would have escaped before ever coming in to contact with Cao's troops. Besides at this point Cao's reputation towards the common folk was probably still tarnished by his actions in Xu, they might not know why he reacted the way that he had.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:09 pm

I don't recall Yuan Shu taking the populace with him when tried to flee to Yuan Shao?

Good to see you again Prana

There is no evidence it was a Liu Bei ploy (or Zhuge Liang, we know what he wanted Liu Bei to do). Liu Bei had never used such a ploy of human shields before or after, it goes against what we know of his personality, none of his enemies claimed it, nor did historians in the aftermath. If the people who knew him and were urging him to run, if the people who hated him and would love such a propaganda opening didn't think it, I would be sceptical that it was a cunning plan.

Speed was of the essence in retreats (as usual), by bringing people he meant his army was caught, he lost men, nearly lost his family, it takes up supplies which given his past would have been a concern. Wei never claimed they were careful to distinguish between civilians and soldiers during Chang Ban, by following Liu Bei they were legitimate targets.

There is no claim Liu Bei forced the civilians to follow, even by Wei to whom this was suited to claim such a thing. The civilians may well have simply been terrified Cao Cao was going to do another Xu (a fair few families from Xu had fled to Jing) so didn't dare stay and Liu Bei (whether out of kindness, fears of backlash if he didn't, PR, all of the above) took them on and stayed when his own advisers begged him to leg it.

The idea Liu Bei using them as human shields requires Wei failing to utilise this as propaganda, Liu Bei changing character and taking a unusual decision that would hamper him rather then help.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby lorindir » Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:17 am

Could Cao Yu changed the fortune of the Cao clan after Cao Rui's death?
1) If he had accepted the position offered to him?
2) Without the position (he had some contact with Cao Shuang? he could have been a good influence if he wished? )
3) After the fall of Cao Shuang, he could have done something? (joined the empress faction, for example)

I am always troubled by his character (I even choose him in the ROTK X), he has access to the most powerfull men of his country, Cao Rui even condidered him as regent , but he choose to just sit and watch, is this true?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:02 am

All I have of Cao Yu is he was favoured by Rui and either rejected office due to his modest nature or stepped outside and Rui was persuaded to remove him, sent back to his fiefdom either way. Either he didn't have the attitude or he made a critical mistake, neither a good sign for a potential Regent and afterwards, a limit to what he can do back in his fiefdom with two men he doesn't seem close to and who would have wanted to keep him away.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DragonAtma » Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:09 am

It's certainly possible, especially if neither Cao Shuang nor Sima Yi were regents. XD

On a more serious note, while he was discussed as a possible regent, it doesn't seem that he did much; obviously he was competent enough to be discussed as a regent and to become Prince of Yan and General-in-Chief by the end of Cao Rui's reign, but to my knowledge they didn't have any overt successes (like Cao Zhang's victory over the Wuhuan in 218 or Cao Chong's weighing the elephant).

And for the same reason, we only have (at best) a rough idea of how competent he is. He could greatly exceed expectations like Hao Zhao, or he could let everyone down the way Ma Su did.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby lorindir » Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:10 pm

DragonAtma wrote:It's certainly possible, especially if neither Cao Shuang nor Sima Yi were regents. XD

On a more serious note, while he was discussed as a possible regent, it doesn't seem that he did much; obviously he was competent enough to be discussed as a regent and to become Prince of Yan and General-in-Chief by the end of Cao Rui's reign, but to my knowledge they didn't have any overt successes (like Cao Zhang's victory over the Wuhuan in 218 or Cao Chong's weighing the elephant).

And for the same reason, we only have (at best) a rough idea of how competent he is. He could greatly exceed expectations like Hao Zhao, or he could let everyone down the way Ma Su did.
Dong Zhou wrote:All I have of Cao Yu is he was favoured by Rui and either rejected office due to his modest nature or stepped outside and Rui was persuaded to remove him, sent back to his fiefdom either way. Either he didn't have the attitude or he made a critical mistake, neither a good sign for a potential Regent and afterwards, a limit to what he can do back in his fiefdom with two men he doesn't seem close to and who would have wanted to keep him away.


Thank you guys for your reply :mrgreen:

Sorry for bothering you, but I have one more question (I promisse it will be the last for a while).
I have looked for something about Sun Hao (the infamous wu's last emperor), and he died in 283 (only 3 years after the fall of his kingdom). As we knew, the campaingn against Wu had some opposition at the Jin court at the time it happened so if they decided to not carry on at 280, they could have found a different emperor (since Sun Hao wasn't killed, we could assume that he would have died at 283 in his own throne).
1) Do you have some info about who would have become emperor? (or possible heirs)
2) Could he have done something to avoid the fate of his state due to Sun Hao's misrule?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Lord_Cao_Cao » Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:13 pm

Sun Hao's son Sun Jin was crown prince, so I guess he would have succeeded. In 283, he was still a teen though (it seems he was born in 269), so there could have been problems (a regent, people being upset with Sun Hao's rule and wanting to remove his son from of the throne perhaps).
I don't think we know anything about what kind of man Sun Jin was, so making assumptions about his possible rule if Wu had survived would be poking around in the dark. Chances are high that Wu would have fallen under his rule, I'd say.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DragonAtma » Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:19 am

Let me add that, since Sun Hao was known to be corrupt, it's entirely possible Wu would wind up with another Sun Chen as regent -- and Wu may not have another Ding Feng around to remove the corrupt regent.

And even if they got a competent heir and a competent regent, keep in mind that Jin had Shu by now. While there are mountains between Yizhou and Jingzhou, they are not as defensive as the Hanzhong mountains, plus Jin could now build p-lenty of ships in Yizhou and just sail down the river.

So I'd say that Wu was doomed form the day that Zhong Hui's failed rebellion made it clear Yizhou was staying in Wei/Jin's hands.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby greencactaur » Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:04 am

Besides Liu Bei, during that time were there any other generals, lords, or even people from the actual court who also had a similar reputation of loving the people?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DragonAtma » Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:16 am

Yes, definitely.

* Cao Bao was popular enough that his death caused riots in Xiapi.
* Zhang Yi (Junsi) was popular enough that when he returned north, hundreds of people saw him off.
* Chen Deng cared enough about Xuzhou's people that when he left Guangling "they all left to follow him".

There are probably a whole bunch more, but those are the ones I know of offhand.
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