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Unread postby Yorak » Wed Mar 05, 2003 8:04 pm

How real was the rivalry between Zhou Yu and Zhuge Liang? The SGYY seemed to make Zhou Yu a petty egomaniac and all-around jerk, but the actual histories seem to show him as a really brilliant, friendly, and all-around great guy, who wouldn't seem prone to that sort of thing...
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Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Wed Mar 05, 2003 8:20 pm

Yorak wrote:How real was the rivalry between Zhou Yu and Zhuge Liang? The SGYY seemed to make Zhou Yu a petty egomaniac and all-around jerk, but the actual histories seem to show him as a really brilliant, friendly, and all-around great guy, who wouldn't seem prone to that sort of thing...


There's no real historical evidence that supports that there was a hatred between the two. Jiangbiao Zhuan, quoted in by Pei, says that Zhou Yu warned Sun Quan of Liu Bei, but not of Zhuge Liang. I don't know how much real communication there was between the two men. Zhou Yu was a busy man all through his carreer, and Zhuge Liang was more concerned with his own things.
Since Romance stages the relationship of the two around Chibi, the historical value of that relationship is rather doubtful. A lot of the things we read in Romance are Yuan period operas and plays, and cannot be accepted as historical proof.
More info: Zhou Yu's Biography
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Wed Mar 05, 2003 8:34 pm

Wei Yan was a expert of bow he shot cao cao two front teeth or was it huang zhong? I Saw the rtk show it show huang Zhong but a site said wei yan shot cao cao teeths.
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Thu Mar 06, 2003 3:33 am

Zhou Gongjin wrote:Guys, this thread is for people to ask questions, debate can take place in a new thread.

I would say that we're in the process of giving the question a more complete answer. It's up to the mods to delete stuffs which they don't like to see here.
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Unread postby Jimayo » Thu Mar 06, 2003 3:35 am

Great Deer wrote:I would say that we're in the process of giving the question a more complete answer. It's up to the mods to delete stuffs which they don't like to see here.


I just had the exact same thought myself. :lol:

So, why do you think the sickness would be mentioned if it was not severe?
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Unread postby Cherry_Blossom » Thu Mar 06, 2003 3:59 am

Thanks guys for all the info concerning my He Fei/Zhang Liao question. :D ..Though I never imagined it blooming into the mini controversy it has.. :lol:

I like the whole story even more now that it seems more believable and now that it sheds some more light on Zhang's intelligence and Gan Ning's loyalty.I do think that Zhang Liao was still impressive as my understanding is he had to go back to save some of his men so the sick guys had to have some strength..but I agree being sick would drain you and make it easier to be beaten in the long run..

I have another Zhang Liao question..a more minor one... I heard he was quoted as saying he couldn't fight commoners ..I was just wondering if that's true. It gives some insight into his personality.
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Thu Mar 06, 2003 4:01 am

Azrael wrote:
I just had the exact same thought myself. :lol:

So, why do you think the sickness would be mentioned if it was not severe?

No matter what, due to these ambiguities, I'd prefer to end the discussion here and not "hog" the bandwidth. :D

i) When did the sickness occur?
ii) What exactly weas its effect on Wu's army?
iii) Zhang Liao's feat was performed right in the very beginning, when Sun Quan's army just arrived. Hence, if Zhang Liao was said to be fighting against sick men, then it would mean that Sun Quan brought 100,000 invalids from Wu to fight He Fei. How logical was that?
iv) Why didn't Sun Quan beat a retreat in the very beginning if the sickness was that serious?
v) Could soldiers who were seriously sick (not talking about common flu) actually engaged and surround the enemies (which Wu's soldiers did).


Just a little recap for others. The question was asked initially regarding Zhang Liao's incredible feat at He Fei when he, together with Li Dian, Yue Jin and some 7000 defenders, successfully resisted and repelled an invasion force of 100,000 led by Sun Quan (refer to Zhang Liao's SGZ bio and Li Dian's SGZ bio). Denny was arguing that since sickness was mentioned in Gan Ning's SGZ bio, Zhang Liao's feat was nothing but ordinary but I disagree. I don't think I want to continue further since I feel that I won't be able to contribute to a better picture of that event. :D
Last edited by Mega Zarak on Thu Mar 06, 2003 4:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Unread postby Jimayo » Thu Mar 06, 2003 4:03 am

Cherry_Blossom wrote:I like the whole story even more now that it seems more believable and now that it sheds some more light on Zhang's intelligence and Gan Ning's loyalty.I do think that Zhang Liao was still impressive as my understanding is he had to go back to save some of his men so the sick guys had to have some strength..but I agree being sick would drain you and make it easier to be beaten in the long run..


Of course I think he was impressive. There were many battles of He Fei, and he won them all. That impresses me. Especially since he was almost always outnumbered.

Cherry_Blossom wrote:I have another Zhang Liao question..a more minor one... I heard he was quoted as saying he couldn't fight commoners ..I was just wondering if that's true. It gives some insight into his personality.


No idea. OF course, Cao Cao implemented a scorched earth policy in the territory inbetween He Fei and the Yangxi, so I would imagine it is somewhat less than true, since as commander of the forces there, Zhang would likely be the one executing it.
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Unread postby Xiahou Mao » Thu Mar 06, 2003 7:33 am

The Zhang Liao not wanting to fight commoners quote was from Dynasty Warriors 3, and is more an example of his character there than any real historical thing. For those who don't have that game, he says it at the start of the Chang Ban battle when Liu Bei sends some soldiers to defend the retreating peasants. I don't think it has any historical roots whatsoever, as I'm not sure Zhang Liao was even part of the Wei army attacking at Chang Ban.
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Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Thu Mar 06, 2003 6:20 pm

Great Deer wrote:I would say that we're in the process of giving the question a more complete answer. It's up to the mods to delete stuffs which they don't like to see here.


I'm afraid I don't agree, these threads get awfully long and the objective of the thread gets pushed back when it turns into a debate thread. But then again who am I huh? Surely I have no experience whatsoever in moderating :roll:
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