Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:33 am

Is your sig new? :wink:

Let me paint a story: It was a dark stormy night... Ok wrong one. The ZTTJ covering that period (is down as I type this so I'm doing this with encyclopaedia and memory, I'll check when gets back and fill in on any mistakes or omissions in a new post) if you want a wider read but I'll try to do the Ling relevant only ones.

Bear in mind Emperor Ling had only been on throne five minutes, his poor (I have always wondered exactly how poor) past and suddenly he is met with the wealth and glory of being emperor, his mother left behind. He is possibly at this point unaware he was a controversial choice (he was well aware of his rival choice in adulthood).

When the eunuchs discovered the plot, it was by Zhu Yu who was quite happy for Cao Jie to die but he declared (becuase he didn't want to be genocided/slaughtered for crimes he hadn't committed) that Chen Fan and co were planning to depose Ling through the Empress Dowager. Ling was moved during the night, given a sword (they do seem to have tried to make a game of it) and then eunuchs began their counter-attack with both sides having armed troops in the palace itself.

I also suspect in the aftermath given human nature and the nature of the Dowager's treatment afterwards, the eunuchs didn't hurry to tell Ling "we misunderstood, they only wished to kill all of us. You were safe as Emperor all along" (well in the immediate future). So for Ling it was he got the throne, he got wealth and the the gentry tried to take it from him very very quickly.


Yep. Haha. In all seriousness, I cant seem to find a profile picture of Liu Bae.

Thanks for your source. I think Im gonna agree that Huan and Ling did have power. However, I still doubt that Huan and Ling were as influential as the 3k rulers( especially the founders).

I just don't see rulers/rule in all but name rulers killing their wives (sometimes to prevent them becoming Empress) being ok attitude of the time being disconnected to "ok to kill Empress"


I never said it was an "ok" attitude. What I said was the Emperor and Empress position was taken extremely serious at that time. This means that a proper comparison with Emperor murdering Empress and Ruler or Gentry murdering main wives cannot be made.

I agree with first part.

I think part of the problem here is I don't know what =! means?


Right.

The opposite of the equal sign " = ". A slash over the equal which means unequal.

I agree with Han on this. I think the religious significance of the Emperor/Empress makes killing an Empress different from killing a wife who might be an Empress someday. Obviously not morally for us, but for people at the time who believed in the Han Dynasty being connected to Heaven etc.


Yes. The position of Empress was taken seriously. Killing Empresses were never a good look for an Emperors.

but actual killing a wife (unless promptly charged with murder) by husband was rare outside of that very rarefied set of figures. Displeased with wife so kill her does not seem at all common place among gentry. Divorce happened certainly but death? You seem at more risk of forced death as an Empress then wife of a grand administrator or even as powerful a figure as Jia Chong


But is it? The East Han Dynasty had tens upon tens of Empresses. And only 3 died. I dont think more Empresses died than Main Wives.

Now about Empress dying more than gentry and rulers wives, as you might recall, in a previous debate where we mentioned about Zhang Fei kidnapping thing and Warlords pillage thing, you made the argument that just because the official histories did not record kidnaps and plunders does not mean that they did not happen.

The same can be said for this argument. There are only a few ways an Woman in history was going to be recorded was

1) Have a royal rank.

2) Achieve something great.

This applies to Chinese history too. If we look at the SanGuoZhi we can see that most of the women recorded are Royalty or wives of important people. However, the former have proper biographies while the latter usually end up as a footnate here and there. Meanwhile, famous people like Huang Zhong and Zhao Yun and Warlords like Liu Yu and Zhang Yang did not have any wives attached to their biographies. Is this because they were childless? No.

This is why having an assumption like Empresses dying more often that other main wives should not be so firmly assumed. In natural fact, just based on the sheer amount of Gentries recorded, it should be assumed that main wives of Rulers/Gentry died more often than Empresses.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:59 am

My Question: How would you guys grade and rank Zhuge Liang, Liu Bei, and the 5 Tiger Generals in terms of Generalship.

Historical versions and sources only.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:31 pm

Just a quick note Han, that last question might be better served as a topic since that comes down to opinion rather then a easy to answer/solve factual question
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:37 pm

Nah its okay. Im just interested in hearing people opinion. And this site already has alot of Five Tiger Generals question. Its just that those questions happened way way back and have details of novel.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby waywardauthor » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:18 pm

There has been a lot of discussion on Zhen Ji, so "The Death of Empress Zhen: Fiction and Historiography in Early Medieval China" might be helpful if there's still interest.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:58 pm

Han wrote:
Yep. Haha. In all seriousness, I cant seem to find a profile picture of Liu Bae.


I've answered this in the Avatar thread :D
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:49 pm

Thank you very much! 8-) In complete seriousness, is there an Rotk one? Not complaining because Human Liu Bei is still bae.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:10 pm

Another question: After Liu Qi died, did Southern JiangXia and Xiakou came under Liu Bei control or Sun Quan control?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:53 pm

I've also got a question. I'm continuing to read the Cambridge History book, currently I'm in the section entitled Han Foreign Relations, subtitled Qiang.

However the book uses Wide-Giles names and I'm struggling to place some names.

Specifically a Chinese General called Sung Chien who lead a kingdom called P'ing Huan that was made up of Qiang and Chinese rebels. It lasted for three decades before being crushed by Cao Cao.

I'm presuming I'm being dense as I can't place who and where these events occurred?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:52 pm

I got the impression Liu Qi's lands and soliders remained under Liu Bei following his death. Till Wu took them :wink:

Sung Chien sounds like Song Jian who died in 214 and was King?

On the ratings the generals: My top three would be Zhang Fei (some big key wins for Shu and had a tactical flair the kingdom generally lacked), Liu Bei (there was a reason he was a famed and much hired commander), Zhuge Liang (once he got expirence, he was good at skirmishes, ambushes, well organized). Zhao Yun and Huang Zhong have small biographies, Yun's annotations suggest more tactics flair though Huang Zhong was an excellent vanguard, Guan Yu last as though a great warruor and someone who certainly imposed himself on the minds of those around him, his recorded battle record as a general is pretty much loss after loss after loss.

Ma Chao I have always found hard to quite place as how good or bad he was. One moment he is showing tactical awareness, bravery in battle, has some good victories on other hand he loses duel, loses to local officers, suffered a lot of defeats after initial stages against Wei or not even doing that well.

I do plan to get your posts Han, sorry been a busy day and I'm now under the weather
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