Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:10 pm

lorindir wrote:Thank you guys for your reply :mrgreen:

Sorry for bothering you, but I have one more question (I promisse it will be the last for a while).
I have looked for something about Sun Hao (the infamous wu's last emperor), and he died in 283 (only 3 years after the fall of his kingdom). As we knew, the campaingn against Wu had some opposition at the Jin court at the time it happened so if they decided to not carry on at 280, they could have found a different emperor (since Sun Hao wasn't killed, we could assume that he would have died at 283 in his own throne).
1) Do you have some info about who would have become emperor? (or possible heirs)
2) Could he have done something to avoid the fate of his state due to Sun Hao's misrule?


There are never too many questions for this forum (31 in one post and I might change my mind :P) so do keep asking

It is hard to say what could have been done, bearing in mind Sun Xiu's death Wu was already in a bad state, replacing the crown prince Sun Wan with Sun Hao to be Emperor was a gamble by the Wu court to stop the downturn. Jin had taken out Shu which meant it could (till a massive barbarian revolt) concentrate on Wu, negated somewhat the river defence. Our understanding of quite how bad Sun Hao's rule is limited partly thanks to Wu's history department ending up in stasis at the end. We know he had crippling (and understandable) paranoia from Yang Hu's arguments to invade but how much of the stories about Sun Hao's corruption and tyranny seem to be borrowed from other last rulers.

However Hao's rule, it is hard to know how Wu can turn around that it is facing 11 army invasion with a declining army and state. Best it can do is hang on till Jin fell apart but having Wu around may have changed some key decisions Jin made.

greencactaur wrote:Besides Liu Bei, during that time were there any other generals, lords, or even people from the actual court who also had a similar reputation of loving the people?


Liu Yu comes to mind. I believe there were quite a few really
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:58 pm

Liu Yu had that reputation I believe?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Zyzyfer » Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:27 am

greencactaur wrote:Besides Liu Bei, during that time were there any other generals, lords, or even people from the actual court who also had a similar reputation of loving the people?


Just to throw a few more people out there:

- Supposedly Han Xuan was greatly loved and had a temple erected in Changsha in his honor, although I have no idea what the actual source for this is supposed to be (surprised DragonAtma didn't mention this one, hee hee)
- Xiahou Dun toiled in the fields with his men
- When the siege on Chengdu started drawing out, Liu Zhang surrendered, and supposedly claimed to do it to spare the people
- Yang Hu and Lu Kang had a very interesting relationship that was beneficial for the populations they oversaw
- Even with the "Yu Ji" blemish, Sun Ce had tremendous popular support
- Cheng Yu loved people so much that he could just eat them up :wink:
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Xu Yuan » Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:02 am

Hmm, isn't Lu Kang hated by some section of Wu because of the massacre he carried out over Bu Chan's defection to Jin? I recall that Yang Hu rushed to save the city but didn't reach it in time.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DragonAtma » Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:26 pm

It's my fault for missing so many people when drowsy. But yeah, there were a bunch of people loved by the populace. Du Ji was recorded as "best administrator in the empire", Zhao Yu (not to be confused with Zhao Yun) produced "a model government", and Lu QIan "maintained effective government there for over thirty years; he was admired for
both his authority and his leniency where required."

But yeah, Lu Kang and Yang Hu had a very strange "Mwahaha, I shall out-kindness you!" thing that was great for people on both sides. Lu Kang's replacement governed normally, which meant that Wu's people started to lean towards Jin. In a way, those two remind me of Shingen Takeda and Kenshin Uesugi, as they were also frenemies.

As for Lu kang's "massacre", it likely refers to him executing most of Bu Chan's family after Bu Chan's defection (which sometimes happened for major crimes back then).
Unless I specifically say otherwise, assume I am talking about historical Three Kingdoms, and not the novel.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby ivolga » Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:33 pm

DragonAtma wrote:There are, mainly because of circumstances. This is probably not an exhaustive list, but...
...

Thanks, that's quite a list!
However, my question was not about relatives fighting with each other (and not about forced defections, like Xiahou Ba's case), but about situations, when loyalty to one's family clashed with loyalty to one's lord (when, say, brothers found themselves serving opposing lords) - and about the consequences (if there were any) and ethical aspects (e.g. whether it was considered a moral thing not to retire in such circumstances) of such situations.


Dong Zhou wrote:1) Vanished.

2) I think one family saw a guy serving Dong and another for the coalition? I don't mean the Yuan family, some obscure one. Can't for life of me recall who

Bar families descending into killing each other, I don't see any reaction. A defectee who ends up with family ala Pang Lin might get a "how sweet, here's a reward" by the court to look good but the historians and gentry don't seem to have hammered people either way, I think there was a understanding that in such turmoil, sometimes such hard choices had to be made. The Zhuge family shows that one could have relatives in other kingdoms and not have it particularly held against you if talented enough, it depended on the ruler. Cao Cao for example never took to Yang Biao due to Yuan connections yet was fine with others

Thank you!


I found surprisingly little examples so far, even though it seems there is quite a potential for distrust and conflicts (I probably wouldn't have trusted my adviser if his brother served my enemy.)

Didn't someone try to slander Zhuge Jin to Sun Quan because of Zhuge Jin's connection to Zhuge Liang? (Sun Quan obviously didn't listen.)

I think (I'm really unsure) there is also a story about some guy who worked for Cao Cao, and whose relative (a cousin or a brother) worked for Yuan Shu(or not? I don't remember). That guy tried to win his relative over to Cao Cao's side, but Cao Cao became suspicious and executed the poor fellow. Does someone recognize this story?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:53 pm

DragonAtma was trying to show it was not considered a huge deal

I found surprisingly little examples so far, even though it seems there is quite a potential for distrust and conflicts (I probably wouldn't have trusted my adviser if his brother served my enemy.)


Generally, warlords and courts were practical about it. In civil war, families get separated for whatever reason and denying talent is only going to hurt you

Didn't someone try to slander Zhuge Jin to Sun Quan because of Zhuge Jin's connection to Zhuge Liang? (Sun Quan obviously didn't listen.)


Yes, there were concerns that he was holding important miliatry position during Yiling
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby ivolga » Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:29 pm

Sorry, another question :)

Xun You's SGZ bio states that Xun You went to Cao Cao in 196, after Cao Cao acquired the emperor, and that he died in 214. That means Xun You served Cao Cao for 18 years. Yet Weishu quotes Cao Cao: "I have traveled with Xun Gongda for over 20 years. ..." (「孤與荀公達周游二十餘年,無毫毛可非者。」). Is this "二十餘年" a poetic exaggeration? Or are there some doubts about when exactly Xun You joined Cao Cao, or about the accuracy of his date of death?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby capnnerefir » Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:19 am

I think its safe to assume that Cao Cao didn't mean that literally, since there's no reason to question the dates involved.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby ivolga » Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:25 am

That's what has been posted here:
There is an alternative, but highly unlikely, explanation: the SGZ biography proper only states that he died during a campaign against Sun Quan, opening up the possibility that he actually died during the 217 campaign instead of the 214 campaign, which would push his service up to 21 years.
However, this is very unlikely because an excerpt from Weishu identifies the campaign in question as the 214 campaign specifically. This is rather ironic because, as stated, it is the Weishu itself that is also the source of the “traveled with Xun Gongda for 20 years” quote.


When asking my question here, I didn't notice that SGZ indeed doesn't give an exact date: "攸從征孫權,道薨。" - it just says that Xun You died on the road to Sun Quan. So, how reliable is that date from Weishu, I wonder...



This issue with dates is perhaps related to another thing in Xun You’s bio that puzzles me:
In 213 Xun You was among those who urged Cao Cao to take the title as Duke of Wei, and after that Cao Cao appointed him Director of Secretariat of Wei. As far as I understand, this position meant staying at the capital and managing civil affairs (that’s what Xun Yu did, after becoming Director of Secretariat of Han - he stopped accompanying Cao Cao on campaigns).
It is believed that with such appointments, Cao Cao was creating a copy of the Han government to ease the transition from Han to Wei. That’s why the position of Director of Secretariat of Wei doesn’t seem to be purely decorative in this case - most likely, Xun You was expected to have his hands full with actually managing Han->Wei transition and creating a functional copy of Han administration.

So it has always seemed strange to me: why does Xun You leave to a campaign almost immediately after receiving such an important civil appointment?

If Xun You died in 217, that would give him several years to work as Director of Secretariat, which seems more logical than going to war right after receiving this appointment.
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