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Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sam » Sun Mar 02, 2003 6:00 pm

Have any questions about the novel? Want to know whether a particular event only occurred in SGYY while not in SGZ? Please ask all your questions related to the three kingdoms era here, and please state whether your question is concerning SGYY (San Guo Yan Yi) Or SGZ (San Guo Zhi)

Starting from today (14/08/05), this beginning post of the questions thread will be edited continuously with links to questions and their answers. The progress may be slow, but eventually we will have an archive of every question ever asked in this thread. The work will be done by myself and several other moderators and administrators. Questions which don't have answers beneath them are those which haven't yet been answered.

Note to moderators and administrators: the current page to carry on from is page number 31.

Reinforcements have arrived! I'll be helping now (SH).

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:arrow: What were Zhou Yu’s plans to help Liu Bei attack YiaZhou?

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:arrow: What happened with the marriage between Sun Shang Xiang and Liu Bei?

Answer

:arrow: Did Guan Yu take someone’s wife while in service of Cao Cao?

Answer

:arrow: Was Zhou Cang real?

Answer

:arrow: Did the Nanman campaigns really occur?

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:arrow: What was Sima Yi’s speech to his soons on his deathbed?

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:arrow: Did Zhuge Liang really call forth the winds at Chibi?

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:arrow: Historically, what happened with the Yellow Turban rebellion?

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:arrow: What was the relationship between Cao Pi, Cao Zhi and Zhen Ji?

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:arrow: Did Cao Cao really massacre the citizens of Xuzhou?

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:arrow: Are there any differences between Lu Xun in the novel and in history?

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:arrow: What are SGYY and SGZ?

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:arrow: How do you pronounce the Qiao sister’s names?

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:arrow: Who was the Qiao sister’s father, and what did he do?

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:arrow: Who was the oldest in the Qiao sisters?

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:arrow: Why is it that the common name between Guan Yu and Guan Ping comes first, but the common name between Xiao Qiao and Da Qiao comes second?

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:arrow: What really happened at the battle of He Fei?

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:arrow: Did Meng De’s New Book, written by Cao Cao, really exist/still exist?

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:arrow: How many soldiers were in a company?

:arrow: Is it true that Huang Zhong was a master of the bow?

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:arrow: How real was the rivalry between Zhuge Liang and Zhou Yu?

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:arrow: Did Zhang Liao really hate fighting commoners?

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:arrow: What was the importance of the Imperial Seal?

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:arrow: What happened to Sun Jing?

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:arrow: What was Cao Cao and Cao Ren‘s relation?

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:arrow: Who did Cao Ren marry in the Sun family?

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:arrow: What exactly is a ‘watch’?

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:arrow: Was Zhou Yu actually evil?

:arrow: What did Yan Liang and Wen Chou accomplish in SGYY/SGZ?

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:arrow: Does anyone know about the Sun family line?

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:arrow: Did Diao Chan really played the violin? And what is a songmistress?

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:arrow: What happened to the Sword of Light that Zhao Yun took from Xiahou En at Chang Ban?

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:arrow: Did Sima Yi control the armies of Wei?

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:arrow: Did Yuan Tan marry Zhen Ji? And did Cao Pi rape her?

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:arrow: Was Lü Bu a descendant of Lü Buwei, the prime minister of the Qin dynasty?

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:arrow: What were the names of Zhou Yu’s sons?

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:arrow: How were wives, daughters and sisters treated in the Three Kingdoms era?

Answer

:arrow: What was the problem with the age difference between Liu Bei and Sun Shang Xiang?

:arrow: Was Zhu Rong made up?

:arrow: What did Zhuge Liang and his wife invent?

:arrow: Why did Chen Gong shoot an arrow at Cao Cao when he came to offer surrender to Lu Bu?

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:arrow: How were armies led, trained and organised in the TK era?

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:arrow: Was Cao Cao a coward or brave?

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:arrow: What was the relation between Zhao Yun and Liu Bei?

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:arrow: Did the Qiao sisters do anything of importance, other than being the wives of famous men?

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:arrow: What is Hao Zhao in Chinese?

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:arrow: In what SGZ bio does it mention Guan Yu trying to steal Lu Bu’s wife at Xia Pi?

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:arrow: Do any of the officers who weren’t in any of the Three Kingdoms have SGZ bios?

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:arrow: What do the words Wu, Shu, Wei and Jin mean?

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:arrow: What rank did Yang Yi have?

Answer

:arrow: What rank did He Yi have?

:arrow: What was life like in the Three Kingdoms era?

:arrow: Why was Pang Tong called the Fledging Phoenix?

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:arrow: Who were the parents of Cao Xiu and Cao Huan?

:arrow: Are Fei Yi and Fei Wei the same person?

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:arrow: Where can I get information on SGZ?

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:arrow: Why are there SGYY books but no SGZ books?

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:arrow: Did Dian Wei have any family?

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:arrow: Did Jiang Wei have a son?

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:arrow: What were the accomplishments of Zhou Tai?

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:arrow: Is there anywhere I can find info on Wu Tugu?

:arrow: What happened to Zhang Bao and Zhang Liang?

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:arrow: Did Cao Pi and Zhen Ji have any children together?

Answer

:arrow: Who is Pang De?

Answer

:arrow: How long is a li?

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:arrow: In what year did Ma Chao die?

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:arrow: Is Liu Shan the same person as Liu Chan?

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:arrow: What book is ‘Tzu Chih T'ung Chien’?

Answer

:arrow: Is SKS the same as SGZ?

Answer

:arrow: What did Lu Xun’s style name mean?

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:arrow: Was Lu Xun behind the plot against Guan Yu at Jing and Zhou Fang‘s defection?

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:arrow: Did Lu Xun and Sun Quan ever have a falling out?

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:arrow: Did Pang Tong ever get married?

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:arrow: What happened to Ping Yuan after Liu Bei left for Xuzhou?

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:arrow: Did Lu Bu have an army of his own?

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:arrow: Who was Dong Zhuo’s wife?

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:arrow: Did Wen Yang serve Wei or Wu?

:arrow: Why is Lu Bu so famous?

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:arrow: How many troops did Wu, Shu and Wei have after Chi Bi?

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:arrow: Can anyone give me more information on the Yuan family?

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:arrow: How many troops did Wu, Shu and Wei have during Zhuge Liang’s northern campaigns?

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:arrow: How many troops did Yuan Shao have before Guandu?

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:arrow: What happened on the second, third and fourth northern campaigns?

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:arrow: What happened with Jiang Wei’s northern campaigns?

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:arrow: Why do they call Cao Cao ‘Wei Wu De’ ?

Answer

:arrow: What happened to Liu Bang’s charioteer?

:arrow: Why didn’t Zhuge Liang use Meng Huo in his northern campaigns?

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:arrow: Was Wei Yan’s plan to take Chang An any good?

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:arrow: Did Liu Bei historically have anything to do with suppression of the Yellow Turban rebellion?

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:arrow: What did the later Southland rulers do?

:arrow: Could Guan Yu defeat Yan Liang and Wen Chou in face to face fighting?

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:arrow: Where were Yan Liang and Wen Chou during the alliance against Dong Zhuo?

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:arrow: What would have happened if the Yellow Turbans won?

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:arrow: What exactly does it mean in Jiang Wan's SGZ bio when it says, "Zhuge Liang established the Prime Minister's office?"

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:arrow: Was Gourd Valley located in/near Wuzhang plains?

:arrow: Who was Mi Zhu?

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:arrow: How large was Ma Chao’s army when he attacked Chang An?

:arrow: Did the Sun family ever come back to power in later times?

:arrow: What happened to the Zhou family?

:arrow: Could Zhang Fei or Guan Yu have overthrown Liu Bei?

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:arrow: How would one compare Lu Bu to Xiang Yu?

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:arrow: Did Zhuge Liang ever write a book in his time?

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:arrow: Who were Zhuge Liang’s sons?

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:arrow: Why did Cao Cao hate Yang Xiu?

:arrow: What were the names of Sun Ce’s children?

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:arrow: What rank did Cao Ren hold?

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:arrow: How did Cao Cao die?

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:arrow: Was Zhang Fei ever in control of Shu’s military affairs?

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:arrow: What did Pang De do in Wei?

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:arrow: How come Sun Ce is only in two battles in DW3?

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:arrow: How do you pronounce Xiahou Dun?

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:arrow: Was Pang De famous when he served Ma Chao?

Answer

:arrow: Was Xiahou De a relative of Xiahou Dun or Xiahou Yuan?

Answer
Last edited by Sam on Fri Sep 23, 2005 1:54 pm, edited 17 times in total.
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Unread postby jiuwan » Sun Mar 02, 2003 7:51 pm

I would like to know more on the following topics...

1)Zhou Yu's plans to <i>help</i> Liu Bei attack YiaZhou. I already know how Zhou Yu's plans were portrayed in SGYY, but I'm not sure of the facts on SGZ and any other historical sources. Reading through the some of the SGZ bio's I only have the limited translations that were found on the KMA site. From the debate with Mengdez New Book, I have discovered there is more to this from what I know. So I would like to know more on this particular subject according to history.

2)The marriage in regards to Sun Shang Xiang. In SGYY she married with Liu Bei in Wu territories, according to Zhou Yu's "fair maiden ruse". But it was said that Sun Quan sent her to Liu Beit to be married. So I would like to know historicially how this marriage turned out.

3)Guan Yu's supposed taking someone's wife while in the services of Cao Cao.

4)Zhou Cang was said to be not in history. So was he someone that LGZ made up or was it in fact some unknown character that was given a name by LGZ or altered.

5)The NanMan campaigns by Zhuge Liang. Was it only something that occurred in SGYY, I have not read much about it on the KMA's SGZ bios.

6)Sima Yi's speech to his sons on his deathbed. According to SGYY his speech went something like this "I have served the Wei house loyally, and I expect you [his sons] to do the same. But as the story unfolds, the ruling house of Wei was overthrowed by Jin. So was Sima Yi's speech only something that was made up to make him more honorable in his death? Because he did set up his family to become the rulers. (Jin replacing Wei, but the actual overthrow was done by his sons, and his grandson Sima Yan became the first emperor)

7)Zhuge Liang's summoning of the winds at Chi Bi. It is easy to see that LGZ overexaggerated when he said Zhuge actually summoned the winds. But in the novel LGZ also stated that Zhuge calculated the approximate time that the winds will blow, so that would contradict LGZ stated with the actual summoning of the winds. Now historically where did Zhou Yu find the actual information for the day that the winds would blow? He himself did know. And I highly doubt that he asked a fisherman or one of the locals nearby. Because wasn't it said that there hasn't been a southwest wind blowing in that area in winter (I think it's winter during the battle of Chi Bi) for a long time. So would the assumption that Zhuge Liang actually did the calculations historically be more correct?

8)The Yellow Turban Rebellion. LGZ overexaggerated on the rebellion, but what about the historical aspect to it? Because there was an actual rebellion that took place that paved the way for the Three Kingdoms event to take place.

9)The love triangle between Cao Pi(ZiHuan), Zhen Ji, and Cao Zhi (ZiJian). The actual tale of the three wasn't directly stated in SGYY, but was stated in the movie series derived from SGYY.

10)Cao Cao setting out to massacre XuZhou in retalion on Tao Qian for the murder of his father Cao Song (I think that was his name)

Ok, I think that's enough questions for now.
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Unread postby Jimayo » Sun Mar 02, 2003 8:03 pm

jiuwan wrote:1)Zhou Yu's plans to <i>help</i> Liu Bei attack YiaZhou. I already know how Zhou Yu's plans were portrayed in SGYY, but I'm not sure of the facts on SGZ and any other historical sources. Reading through the some of the SGZ bio's I only have the limited translations that were found on the KMA site. From the debate with Mengdez New Book, I have discovered there is more to this from what I know. So I would like to know more on this particular subject according to history.


He didn't. It was Zhou Yu's plan to attack Yizhou for Wu via Nanjun commandery, however, he died before the plan could be carried out, and Wu had no commander capable of such a move at that time, so they handed Nanjun over to Liu Bei.

jiuwan wrote:2)The marriage in regards to Sun Shang Xiang. In SGYY she married with Liu Bei in Wu territories, according to Zhou Yu's "fair maiden ruse". But it was said that Sun Quan sent her to Liu Beit to be married. So I would like to know historicially how this marriage turned out.


I'll get back to you on this one once I look it up in GOS.

3)Guan Yu's supposed taking someone's wife while in the services of Cao Cao.


He didn't. He actually asked for a certain women as wife while they were taking Xuzhou(that was Cao Cao in concert with Liu Bei) from Lu Bu(I forget who's wife she was previously), but Cao Cao became suspicious of it because he was so insistent on it, so he checked her out, found her hot, and took her for himself.

4)Zhou Cang was said to be not in history. So was he someone that LGZ made up or was it in fact some unknown character that was given a name by LGZ or altered.


Someone made up, but I don't think by LGZ. I believe he was part of the legends surrounding Guan Yu prior to LGZs writing of SGYY.

5)The NanMan campaigns by Zhuge Liang. Was it only something that occurred in SGYY, I have not read much about it on the KMA's SGZ bios.


Steve(SHZLD told me a lot about this). I'll ask him about it again, and get back to you on it.

6)Sima Yi's speech to his sons on his deathbed. According to SGYY his speech went something like this "I have served the Wei house loyally, and I expect you [his sons] to do the same. But as the story unfolds, the ruling house of Wei was overthrowed by Jin. So was Sima Yi's speech only something that was made up to make him more honorable in his death? Because he did set up his family to become the rulers. (Jin replacing Wei, but the actual overthrow was done by his sons, and his grandson Sima Yan became the first emperor)


No idea, although I have a good idea of who to ask about this.

7)Zhuge Liang's summoning of the winds at Chi Bi. It is easy to see that LGZ overexaggerated when he said Zhuge actually summoned the winds. But in the novel LGZ also stated that Zhuge calculated the approximate time that the winds will blow, so that would contradict LGZ stated with the actual summoning of the winds. Now historically where did Zhou Yu find the actual information for the day that the winds would blow? He himself did know. And I highly doubt that he asked a fisherman or one of the locals nearby. Because wasn't it said that there hasn't been a southwest wind blowing in that area in winter (I think it's winter during the battle of Chi Bi) for a long time. So would the assumption that Zhuge Liang actually did the calculations historically be more correct?


No, Zhou Yu figured it out.

8)The Yellow Turban Rebellion. LGZ overexaggerated on the rebellion, but what about the historical aspect to it? Because there was an actual rebellion that took place that paved the way for the Three Kingdoms event to take place.


LGZ actually left out some of the more significant YT rebel commanders. There were two in GOS that whooped Huangfu Song and Zhu Jun a few times until the two teamed up to defeat them. I'll look up their names and get back to you.

9)The love triangle between Cao Pi(ZiHuan), Zhen Ji, and Cao Zhi (ZiJian). The actual tale of the three wasn't directly stated in SGYY, but was stated in the movie series derived from SGYY.


Highly questionable.

10)Cao Cao setting out to massacre XuZhou in retalion on Tao Qian for the murder of his father Cao Song (I think that was his name)


What about it?
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Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Sun Mar 02, 2003 8:07 pm

jiuwan wrote:
1)Zhou Yu's plans to <i>help</i> Liu Bei attack YiaZhou. I already know how Zhou Yu's plans were portrayed in SGYY, but I'm not sure of the facts on SGZ and any other historical sources. Reading through the some of the SGZ bio's I only have the limited translations that were found on the KMA site. From the debate with Mengdez New Book, I have discovered there is more to this from what I know. So I would like to know more on this particular subject according to history.


Okay, I can only presume you are talking about Yi Province..so. Zhou Yu proposed a plan to Sun Quan to invade Yi Province together with Sun Yu, Sun Quan's cousin. I don't remember him discussing with with Liu Bei. Zhou Yu died and the plan was aborted.


jiuwan wrote: 2)The marriage in regards to Sun Shang Xiang. In SGYY she married with Liu Bei in Wu territories, according to Zhou Yu's "fair maiden ruse". But it was said that Sun Quan sent her to Liu Beit to be married. So I would like to know historicially how this marriage turned out.


This marriage was probably concluded when Liu Bei went to see Sun Quan about borrowing Nan Commandery. Zhou Yu was dead by then so I guess that answers the other part of it.

jiuwan wrote:3)Guan Yu's supposed taking someone's wife while in the services of Cao Cao.


Didn't het get a concubine? Can't remember.

jiuwan wrote:4)Zhou Cang was said to be not in history. So was he someone that LGZ made up or was it in fact some unknown character that was given a name by LGZ or altered.


All I know that he has no individual biography in Sanguo Zhi. You can read Guan Yu's too see if he is in there. Doubt it though.

jiuwan wrote:5)The NanMan campaigns by Zhuge Liang. Was it only something that occurred in SGYY, I have not read much about it on the KMA's SGZ bios.


Of course it really happened. Zhuge Liang enslaved the south because he needed manpower and the natural resources from that region. It was common back then to take control over natives like that.

jiuwan wrote:6)Sima Yi's speech to his sons on his deathbed. According to SGYY his speech went something like this "I have served the Wei house loyally, and I expect you [his sons] to do the same. But as the story unfolds, the ruling house of Wei was overthrowed by Jin. So was Sima Yi's speech only something that was made up to make him more honorable in his death? Because he did set up his family to become the rulers. (Jin replacing Wei, but the actual overthrow was done by his sons, and his grandson Sima Yan became the first emperor)


I haven't read Jinshu so I couldn't say for sure. But it sounds like it was made up to make Sima Yi a visionary of some sort.

jiuwan wrote:7)Zhuge Liang's summoning of the winds at Chi Bi. It is easy to see that LGZ overexaggerated when he said Zhuge actually summoned the winds. But in the novel LGZ also stated that Zhuge calculated the approximate time that the winds will blow, so that would contradict LGZ stated with the actual summoning of the winds. Now historically where did Zhou Yu find the actual information for the day that the winds would blow? He himself did know. And I highly doubt that he asked a fisherman or one of the locals nearby. Because wasn't it said that there hasn't been a southwest wind blowing in that area in winter (I think it's winter during the battle of Chi Bi) for a long time. So would the assumption that Zhuge Liang actually did the calculations historically be more correct?


The Zhuge Liang Borrowing the winds story is completely fake. Zhuge Liang didn't do any calculations at all. There is no mention of wind problems in SGZ Wu, and I don't remember seeing much about it in the book of Shu. Sure the area was famous for it's sudden climatic changes, but that doesn't explain much.
All the stories around Chibi are most Yuan era dramas. (I will post a collection of those on KMA soon)

jiuwan wrote:8)The Yellow Turban Rebellion. LGZ overexaggerated on the rebellion, but what about the historical aspect to it? Because there was an actual rebellion that took place that paved the way for the Three Kingdoms event to take place.


See my essay.
http://www.millennial-fair.com/literature/han1.html

jiuwan wrote:9)The love triangle between Cao Pi(ZiHuan), Zhen Ji, and Cao Zhi (ZiJian). The actual tale of the three wasn't directly stated in SGYY, but was stated in the movie series derived from SGYY.


As far as I know, Cao Zhi was in love with Zhen Ji, but she was given to Cao Pi because he was the eldest.

jiuwan wrote:10)Cao Cao setting out to massacre XuZhou in retalion on Tao Qian for the murder of his father Cao Song (I think that was his name)


What is the question? Did it happen? Yes. For Tao Qian? Probably not.
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Lu Xun

Unread postby Russ » Sun Mar 02, 2003 9:46 pm

I was wondering if anyone could tell me the difference between Lu Xun in the Three Kingdoms Novel, and in actual life. And...what is SGYY anf SGZ? I feel like a horses patoot asking, it seems like everyone knows but me. :(
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Re: Lu Xun

Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Sun Mar 02, 2003 10:15 pm

Warlord Lu Xun wrote:I was wondering if anyone could tell me the difference between Lu Xun in the Three Kingdoms Novel, and in actual life. And...what is SGYY anf SGZ? I feel like a horses patoot asking, it seems like everyone knows but me. :(


San Guo Yan Yi is Romance of the Three Kingdoms, the novel written by Luo Guanzhong.
San Guo Zhi is the historical record that San Guo Yan Yi is based on.

Lu Xun's SGZ biography is quite long, but my new biography for Lu Xun can be expected somewhere next month.
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The Qiao sisters

Unread postby Russ » Sun Mar 02, 2003 10:58 pm

The Qiao Sisters:
For one, how do pronounce their names?? They are the only ones I can't pronounce, especially Xiao.
Who is their father?
What did he do?
I know their real names arent Xiao and Da, they mean older and younger I believe.
Which is the older one?
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Unread postby DarkAnthem » Sun Mar 02, 2003 11:16 pm

I'll elaborate on a few,

jiuwan wrote:2)The marriage in regards to Sun Shang Xiang. In SGYY she married with Liu Bei in Wu territories, according to Zhou Yu's "fair maiden ruse". But it was said that Sun Quan sent her to Liu Beit to be married. So I would like to know historicially how this marriage turned out.


I don't think much is known about the marriage. Lady Sun was married to Liu Bei, and later returned to Wu when Liu Bei was attacking Yi Zhou.

Fa Zheng's bio mentions Lady Sun being very boyish and had many guards, and whenever Liu Bei went into her room he became anxious,

In ZYBZ in Zhao Yun's bio it mentions Sun Quan calling back Lady Sun; originally Lady Sun wanted to return with Liu Shan but Zhao Yun took Liu Shan away. ZYBZ isn't very credible though, but this story isn't too unbelievable.

Not much else is said about Lady Sun other than I remember that someone else's bio mentioned her returning to Wu after Liu Bei entered Yi Zhou. This kind of stuff usually isn't too important for SGZ bios to elaborate on, since the marriage wasn't all that significant.

jiuwan wrote:5)The NanMan campaigns by Zhuge Liang. Was it only something that occurred in SGYY, I have not read much about it on the KMA's SGZ bios.


Zhuge Liang pacifying Nanman was mentioned in his SGZ bio, only in one line though. Pei's notes in his bios (not included in the translated version) based on HJCQ mentions Zhuge Liang and Ma Su's exchange of wanting to capture the heart of Nanman instead of wiping them out, and it also mentions Zhuge Liang capturing and releasing Meng Huo seven times.

jiuwan wrote:6)Sima Yi's speech to his sons on his deathbed. According to SGYY his speech went something like this "I have served the Wei house loyally, and I expect you [his sons] to do the same. But as the story unfolds, the ruling house of Wei was overthrowed by Jin. So was Sima Yi's speech only something that was made up to make him more honorable in his death? Because he did set up his family to become the rulers. (Jin replacing Wei, but the actual overthrow was done by his sons, and his grandson Sima Yan became the first emperor)


I checked Jin Shu and I don't see any record of Sima Yi saying that, so I'm assuming that he never said that before dying.

Warlord Lu Xun wrote:The Qiao Sisters:
For one, how do pronounce their names?? They are the only ones I can't pronounce, especially Xiao.
Who is their father?
What did he do?
I know their real names arent Xiao and Da, they mean older and younger I believe.
Which is the older one?


Qiao is pronounced something like "Chi-ee-ow"

Xiao is pronounced something like "Shi-ee-ow", and Da is just pronounced "da".

Da means "big", and Xiao means "small". Da Qiao is older and Xiao Qiao is younger.

I don't think their father did anything significant. Zhou Yu's bio refers to him as "Qiao Gong" (喬公) which is a respectful way of refering to him and not his real name. I'm not too sure what his real name is; I think it's Qiao Mao but I'm not certain.
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Re: The Qiao sisters

Unread postby CK » Sun Mar 02, 2003 11:28 pm

Warlord Lu Xun wrote: What did he do?


Well, in SGYY at least, he tried his best in convincing (of course he truly believed) Empress Dowager Wu that Liu Bei will make a good son-in-law. :wink:
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Re: The Qiao sisters

Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Sun Mar 02, 2003 11:35 pm

madaboutck wrote:
Warlord Lu Xun wrote: What did he do?


Well, in SGYY at least, he tried his best in convincing (of course he truly believed) Empress Dowager Wu that Liu Bei will make a good son-in-law. :wink:


Leaving out the fact that she was dead by then.
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