Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby waywardauthor » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:45 pm

DragonAtma wrote:I should point out that in general, the more population a country has, the better officers they have.

I'd actually dispute this. While it is true that there is a greater pool of talent, becoming an officer and learning the trade of war - like any other occupation - requires exposure. 60 million people that have limited exposure to anything other than peasant rebellions will not be producing skilled tacticians and cavalry commanders on anywhere near the same level as a the border regions of Bingzhou, Yanzhou, and Liangzhou.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:34 pm

The average talent of the 3k era MIGHT be higher than those of Chu-Han and Warring States. But this is only because we know so little about those mid and bottom tier guys of those Eras.

Regardless, Bai Qi, Han Xin, Xiang Yu, Huo QuBing and Yue Fei victories were all more impressive than that of Cao Cao.

I just cannot fanthom how those Legend Guys will get played by Xu Rong and AMBUSHED by Zhang Xiu. Seriously...

Anyways, Military classics and Military strategies of China blossomed during the Warring States and to a certain extent, Spring And Autumn periods. Thats fact. Today, the military strategies of Sun Bin and others from that Era are held in higher regards compared to those of the 3k period.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Military_Classics

The Battles of Julu and Wei River plus those of Gaixia and Changping were more impressive than Cao Cao GuanDu and Liang Campaigns. Once again thats fact.

If Xu You did not defect, would Cao have won?(Guandu)
If Xü Chu did not protect Cao, would he have survive?(Liang Zhou)

Now lets analyse the competition...

Han Xin strongest enemy that he defeated is easily Xiang Yu. The Battle of Gaixia plus Wei River is legendary.

Huo Qubing faced a United Xiongnu Empire that could for inch to inch match the Han Dynasty in terms of Territory Size. He proceeded to defeat them in cavalry tactics that THE XIONGU SPECIALLISE IN!

Xiang Yu defeated Liu Bang and Zhang Han while being outnumbered at least, AT LEAST one to three. Note that Im am taking the lowest estimates of each number avaliable which makes Xiang Yu victories even less impressive.

I am skeptical about Bai Qi victories because the numbers are clearly exaggerated and because they are not properly recorded. But he is mentioned to be Undefeated throughout his long long career, fighting over hundred battles.

Now lets look at how much help they receive compared to Cao Cao.

During Han Xin campaigns, Liu Bang best advisors were always with Liu Bang. Han Xin meanwhile only had Kuai Tong who does not even have a Wiki page.

Peng Yue and Ying Bu never worked with Han Xin at least up to Gaixia.

Xiang Yu had only Fan Zeng advising him. His other generals are: Zhongli Mo, Long Ju and Ying Bu. They are all very impressive generals. BUT... during the Battle of PengCheng(Xiang Yu most impressive victory in my opinion) none of those guys were with him.

Huo Qubing had the most help out of all of them(my opinion) which includea the likes of Wei Qing and Li Guang.

Now... Cao Cao had Guo Jia, Xun You and Cheng Yu advising him. And Xu Huang, Zhang Liao, Cao Ren, Xiahou Yuan helping him.

In terms of help receive, Cao Cao surbodinates outclasses pretty much every Legend Contemporary excluding maybe Ying Bu and Wei Qing.

So let us see... Military strategy of Warring States and Chu Han are more impressive compared to 3k...

The feats and achievements of the Legends easily... EASILY outclasses that of Cao Cao...

And the help these guys receive are most of the time less than the help Cao Cao receive...

So... its pretty obvious who is better. Cao Cao is a top 20 Chinese General. But the Legends I mention(excluding Zhang Liang) are easily top ten material.

Feel free to debate...
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:55 pm

To bring the topic back to 3k

Who was Lü Meng successor? Lu Xun or Zhu Ran?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:57 pm

Han wrote:To bring the topic back to 3k

Who was Lü Meng successor? Lu Xun or Zhu Ran?


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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DragonAtma » Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:30 pm

waywardauthor wrote:
DragonAtma wrote:I should point out that in general, the more population a country has, the better officers they have.

I'd actually dispute this. While it is true that there is a greater pool of talent, becoming an officer and learning the trade of war - like any other occupation - requires exposure. 60 million people that have limited exposure to anything other than peasant rebellions will not be producing skilled tacticians and cavalry commanders on anywhere near the same level as a the border regions of Bingzhou, Yanzhou, and Liangzhou.


I dispute your dispute! XD

But seriously, even though China's at peace, it's not really at peace. There's the xianbei, the wuhuan, the qiang, the nanman, the shanyue, the di; there are border regions in you, bing, liang, yi, jing, jiao, and yang. And even if someone grows up in a "safe" area, they can easily be sent cross-country to fight natives. And even if there are no major rebllions or wars, only a fool would sit back and assume they'll never need a military.
Unless I specifically say otherwise, assume I am talking about historical Three Kingdoms, and not the novel.

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:05 am

I recall there used to be a fair few places that explained Chen Shou's use of what titles he gave the kingdom rulers (First Sovereign, Grand Progenitor and so on) but can't find one. Anyone got a good link to give to Han?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:13 am

Grand Martial Progenitor- Taizu Wu HuangDi

Cao Cao was given this title due to his conquest(martial)
He was named the Grand Progenitor as he was the one who set the foundation of Wei.

Former/First Soverign/Ruler- This title was given to Liu Bei to differentiate him from Liu Shan who was know as Later/Latter Soverign/Ruler
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:30 am

Dong Zhou wrote:I recall there used to be a fair few places that explained Chen Shou's use of what titles he gave the kingdom rulers (First Sovereign, Grand Progenitor and so on) but can't find one. Anyone got a good link to give to Han?


Going from memory Moss Roberts mentions it in his notes in his introduction to RoTK but I no longer have that translation.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DragonAtma » Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:27 pm

Han wrote:Grand Martial Progenitor- Taizu Wu HuangDi

Cao Cao was given this title due to his conquest(martial)
He was named the Grand Progenitor as he was the one who set the foundation of Wei.

Former/First Soverign/Ruler- This title was given to Liu Bei to differentiate him from Liu Shan who was know as Later/Latter Soverign/Ruler


More specifically, it's to deny Liu Bei and Liu Shan being part of the Han dynasty (something Liu Bei claimed); if they accepted Liu Bei's claim, then Liu Bang would be First Ruler, and Liu Bei would be Twenty-Seventh Ruler or so (this skips Gengshi, the Prince of Changyi and both of Eastern Han's Emperor Shaos, as they're not usually counted).
Unless I specifically say otherwise, assume I am talking about historical Three Kingdoms, and not the novel.

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:40 pm

Source?
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