Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Han » Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:24 pm

Yeah I see. I just finished all of Rafe 3k Zztj.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby philnguyen1994 » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:39 pm

Historically, how and when did Cao Cao obtain all the lands in Yan Province?

It just seems to go: Cao Cao rejected an appointment from Dong Zhou -> ran back to Chen Liu and recruited an army (but no land at this point?) -> join the anti-Dong Zhou alliance as a subordinate of Zhang Miao, governor of Chen Liu -> fought the Yellow Turbans remnants->....

But then by the time of the Xuzhou campaign, he seems to have controlled all the cities in Yan - Zhang Miao and Bao Xin seem to have given up their government-appointed governorships to be his subordinates.I know Liu Dai got killed by the YT remnants, but what about Yuan Yi, Qiao Mao, Kong Zhou and other government-appointed governors in Yan - they just seem to disappear without a fight and let Cao Cao take over Yan?

Oh and historically, when did Xu Chang become his? Who was the original governor of Xu Chang? In the novel, the city seems to have appeared from nowhere when Cao Cao arrives to save the Emperor.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Lord_Cao_Cao » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:11 am

When Liu Dai was killed in 192, Cao Cao himself was Administrator of Dong Commandery (so basically on the same level as Zhang Miao and the others). Cao Cao was invited by Liu Dai's subordinate Bao Xin to lead his armies against the Yellow Turbans and become the new Governor of Yan Province, which Cao Cao did. The Yellow Turbans were defeated, but Bao Xin died in the conflict. So Cao Cao did not take Yan over militarily (or rather the position of governor), but was recommended to govern it, since the position of governor was vacant. Zhang Miao therefore became his subordinate and rebelled alongside Chen Gong in 194.

In the same year, Chen Wen died, who was Governor of Yang Province. Yuan Shu recommended Yuan Yi as his replacement (I think they were cousins), but he was murdered on his way.

Qiao Mao was killed by Liu Dai in 190.

Kong Zhou was actually Governor of Yu Province IIRC. But he was also dead by the point Cao Cao became Governor of Yan.

As for Xuchang, I don't think it is noted anywhere. It must have been between 192 and 196 - considering that Yuan Shu was Administrator of Nanyang in northern Jing until 193 and wielded some influence in Yu Province (he appointed Sun Jian as Kong Zhou's replacement back in 190 and later Sun Ben), I would take a guess and say that Cao Cao took Xuchang when he fought Yuan Shu in 193 and forced him to flee to Shouchun in Yang Province.

EDIT: Thinking about it, when the Yan rebellion happened and Lu Bu invaded, don't the sources say that Cao Cao only retained control over like two or three cities? Not sure whether that was only directed to his territory in Yan or his whole territory. So it could be that Xuchang was rather taken after 194.
Last edited by Lord_Cao_Cao on Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:40 am

I've just read that the seals that officials wore had different colour ribbons that indicated rank. Does anyone know what colours worse worn by which ranks?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:11 pm

Imperial Warlord by Rafe de Crespigny first mentions Xuchang [Xu City at the time] 196.

In 196 Cao Cao takes control of Chen, Yingchuan and Runan.

In the Summer of 196 Cao Cao sets his capital at Xu city in Yingchuan, where he develops agricultural colonies.

In autumn of 196 Emperor Xian [Liu Xie] returns to Luoyang and eventually Cao Cao brings him to Xu City.

So Cao Cao assumed control over the commendery and therefor Xu City, making it his capital all in the span of a year, which would come to be known as Xuchang when Cao Pi renamed the city to befit a prophecy.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:32 pm

Welcome to the forum philnguyen1994

It just seems to go: Cao Cao rejected an appointment from Dong Zhou -> ran back to Chen Liu and recruited an army (but no land at this point?) -> join the anti-Dong Zhou alliance as a subordinate of Zhang Miao, governor of Chen Liu -> fought the Yellow Turbans remnants->....


To add to Lord Cao Cao's answer

After the alliance, Cao Cao gathered troops and was invited into Dong to deal with bandits, did well there and got a base. Then the invite into Yan. He was unchallenged in Yan succesion as someone had to do it with Liu Dai dead, the main miliatry figure (Bao Xun) backed Cao Cao before his death in battle, Bao Xin and Chen Gong worked at persuading local leaders, Cao Cao had Yuan Shao's support and with the Turbans under him, a large army. Zhang Miao was an old friend of Cao Cao and partly allied with Cao Cao due to worries about Yuan Shao
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Jia Shengde » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:24 am

Kongming archives says on Gongsun Zan:
"Fact vs. Fiction
Differences Between Fact and Common Fiction
Historically, he was beheaded by Yuan Shao’s men. [ZZTJ]"

(http://kongming.net/encyclopedia/Gongsun-Zan)

While this biography states that it was unclear how exactly he died:
http://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?t=23873
Some other sources said that he committed suicide, if kongming archives is wrong on this it would be nice if it could be corrected.

Which is true?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:29 am

The Biographical Dictionary of the Later Han from Rafe de Crespigny says

Gongsun Zan killed his wife and children and then himself; Yuan Shao sent his head to the imperial court at Xu City.


To Establish Peace by Rafe de Crespigny says

Realising he was doomed, Gongsun Zan strangeld his sisters, his wives and his children and prepared his own funeral pyre. Yuan Shao pressed forward to climb the terraces and they cut off Gongsun Zan's head.
Last edited by DaoLunOfShiji on Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:29 am

The ZZTJ says:

Yuan Shao pressed his men forward to climb the terraces, and they cut off Gongsun Zan's head.


You can find that here.

That's my mistake in the biography. I do need to go back and edit it at some point. It is on my to do list.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Jia Shengde » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:39 am

Thank you all, and thanks for the biography.
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