Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby capnnerefir » Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:00 pm

Zhang Yang's journey was a circuitous one.

In 188, Ding Yuan sent him to the Han court, where he became a staff officer to Jian Shi, commander of the Western Garden Army. Afrer Jian Shi's death in 189, Zhang Yang became one of He JIn's officers and was sent out to recruit soldiers in Bing. Zhang Yang did return to Bing, but instead of recruiting men for He Jin, he led the recruits in campaigns against the bandits in Shangdang. When Dong Zhuo seized power at the end of September, Zhang Yang tried to take over Shangdang commandery. He was defeated by the local administrator, but he still had a substantial army and plundered the surrounding commanderies.

In 190, Yuan Shao established himself in Henei, which was next to Shangdang. Zhang Yang joined him there, along with the exiled Chanyu Yufuluo. In 191, however, Yufuluo turned against Yuan Shao after Yuan Shao seized Ji province. He forced Zhang Yang to revolt with him and the two marched on Ye. They were defeated by Qu Yi and fell back to Liyang, which they seized from Yuan Shao's subordinate Geng Zhi. This bought them some room, and both men rebuilt their armies.

At that point, Zhang Yang was a declared enemy of Yuan Shao (not entirely of his own doing). Dong Zhuo had been forced back to Chang'an earlier that year by Sun Jian, so he was trying to use diplomatic measures to restore his strength. In the west he allied with Han Sui and Ma Teng. In the east, he offered to make Zhang Yang the Administrator of Henei, since Yuan Shao was their shared enemy and he had just recently vacated the commandery. (Dong Zhuo's army consisting of so many of Ding Yuan's former troops probably played a role as well.) Zhang Yang accepted and made peace with Dong Zhuo. This allowed him to get out from under Yufuluo's thumb. He established himself at Yewang and remained their for the next few years.

So at the time of his appointment, Zhang Yang was in Liyang (Wei commandery, Ji province). He wasn't in Chang'an at that time. It wouldn't be unusual if he did visit (Yewang was within traveling distance of Chang'an after all) but Zhang Yang had been out of the capital for years when Dong Zhuo appointed him.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:28 am

Two questions:

Do we know what Qu Yi (of Han Fu/Yuan Shao) was up to during the Yellow Turban campaign?

What occurred first, the death of Zhang Jue or Zhu Jun/Huangfu Song/Cao Cao's victory over Bo Cai?

Thanks guys!
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Sep 30, 2017 11:51 am

Sun Fin wrote:Two questions:

Do we know what Qu Yi (of Han Fu/Yuan Shao) was up to during the Yellow Turban campaign?

What occurred first, the death of Zhang Jue or Zhu Jun/Huangfu Song/Cao Cao's victory over Bo Cai?

Thanks guys!


No, think first time he pops up is 191

Bo Cai I believe
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby capnnerefir » Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:44 pm

Sun Fin wrote:What occurred first, the death of Zhang Jue or Zhu Jun/Huangfu Song/Cao Cao's victory over Bo Cai?


Zhang Jue appears to have died in the 9th month of the year. ZZTJ has:

In the eighth month Huangfu Song fought with the Yellow Turbans at Cangting and captured their leader Bu Si. Dong Zhuo had attacked Zhang Jue without success and he was condemned for his failure. On the day yisu [25 Sep] an edict ordered Huangfu Song to attack Zhang Jue.


When Huangfu Song arrived in the tenth month, Zhang Jue had passed away from illness and the armies were commanded by Zhng Liang. Zhu Jun, Huangfu Song, and Cao Cao pacified Yingchuan in the fifth and sixth months.

Sun Fin wrote:Do we know what Qu Yi (of Han Fu/Yuan Shao) was up to during the Yellow Turban campaign?

Nothing about Qu Yi is recorded prior to him revolting against Han Fu in 191.

It's likely that he was a Ji province native, and thus also likely that he fought against the Turbans in some capacity. But that's all speculation.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:15 pm

Thanks guys, that's what I thought. I asked as Wiki has this on Qu Yi:

He Hailed from a prestigious family in Liang province and was very familiar with the military strategy of the Xiongnu and Qiang nomads. During the Yellow Turbans Rebellion, he aided the famed Han General Huangfu Song in fighting the rebels. During this time, Yuan Shao was also expanding his influence amongst the Han military elites, and it was this time that Qu Yi was recruited under Yuan's wing.


However there was no reference to it in Rafe's tomb or anywhere else that I could find!
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby capnnerefir » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:50 pm

That biography is someone's fanfiction. Note that it says nothing of his time under Han Fu or his revolt in 191, established facts.

There are several people of the 麴 family from Xiping, in Jincheng (in Liang) but there's nothing to suggest that Qu Yi was related to them.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:11 am

Yeah, i did think it strange that there was no reference to Han Fu. Thanks mate :D.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Rezko_Kanashi » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:10 am

I've been trying to find out some of the ways officers were executed in real life, but couldn't find any in great detail. Could anyone provide me with maybe a link, or inform me of a few ways some generals, advisors, or anyone else in between were killed?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby greencactaur » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:40 pm

I think most officers/advisors who were killed were usually regards to either Successor wars, or screwing up.

I think the most known one being Ma Su. He was told to encamp on the flat ground , rather than on top of a hill by Zhuge Liang. Zhuge sent Wang Ping as well to sort of balance out Ma Su's inexperience as it was his first time leading troops I believe. Upon arriving at Jie Ting Ma Su adamantly wanted to encamp on top of the hill, which Wang Ping argued against. Eventually the force was split into 2, with Wang Ping encamping on flat ground as opposed to Ma Su's camp, on the top of a hill. Afterwards Zhang He (I believe) surrounded the Hill that Ma Su was encamped on top of, cut off his water supply, then then set fire around the hill causing Ma Su to panic.He began making extremely rash decisions. After this loss Ma Su was executed by ZL and he also demoted himself for entrusting Ma Su an inexperienced commander to such an important post.

An example of the successor wars and a lord killing off a advisor/politician would probably be Yang Xiu. Apparently Yang Xiu was able to relate to Cao Cao very well, so because of this he managed to gain a somewhat high rank. Yang Xiu wanted Cao Zhi to succeed Cao Cao so if I remember correctly, he leaked information to Cao Zhi so that he could impress his father. I don't know if the Chicken rib story in the novel is true or not. I doubt it? Someone might be able to elaborate on Yang Xiu.

There were some officers like Chunyu Qiong(guarded WuChao) and Zhang Ren (officer under Liu Zhang) Who would be captured and than executed for either being a threat, or simply because they wouldn't join. Guan Yu's execution is sort of confusing as well. it's said he was captured, and than Sun Quan asked him to surrender, to which he refused. Others say that Lu Meng ordered his execution the moment he was captured. If you ask me , Chances are Lu Meng captured him, executing him on the spot. I believe this because if Lu Meng was in Jing province at the time, to escort Guan Yu over to Sun Quan would have taken quite some time.

Some officers would be executed on the spot for betraying their master. Chen Gong was originally under Cao Cao. I believe he guarded Pu Yang? He helped Lu BU take over it from within. When Lu Bu was defeated , Cao Cao ordered his execution. The novel story of him trying to persuade Chen Gong to rejoin is fictional. Great story though.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:43 pm

I don't think he might the reasons why, rather the method. For example were they decapitated, hung or poisoned etc?

EDIT: According to wiki, so treat with caution, the methods of execution used in the Han dynasty were:

Dà Pì (大辟), the death sentence. Methods of execution were quartering, or cutting the body into four pieces (fēn wéi lù 分為戮); boiling alive (pēng 烹); tearing off an offender's head and four limbs by attaching them to chariots (chēliè 車裂); beheading (xiāoshǒu 梟首); execution then abandonment of the offender’s body in the local public market (qìshì 棄市); strangulation (jiǎo 絞); and slow slicing (língchí 凌遲). Other methods of execution were also used. (200 crimes)


The use of chariots to tear people in to pieces I'm confident on as I know I've read somewhere that was the fate meted out to Ma Yuanyi when his involvement in the YT's was discovered!
Last edited by Sun Fin on Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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