Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Lord Yang Jiahua » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:26 pm

Who exterminated Liu Yuan's clan?

Is it all in the Book of Jin? Been very interested to see if the narrative has any difference from ones i've read on the Period of Disunion. (220-580)

Is the same Wang Jun fighting Liu Yuan's armies the same Wang Jun that defeated the Southland along with Du Yu?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:39 pm

In short, Shi Hu captured and slaughtered Liu Yuan's family.
The fate of the Han Zhao royalty from the ZZTJ

19. In autumn, the eighth month, Liu Yin of Zhao led several tens of thousands of Zhao soldiers from Shanggui to march towards Chang'an. The Rong tribes and the Xia people (ethnic Han) of the commandaries of Longdong, Wudu, Anding, Xinping, Beidi, Fufeng, and Shiping all raised troops to support him. Liu Yin's army marched to Zhongqiao. Shi Sheng closed the gates of Chang'an to mount a defense, while Shi Hu led twenty thousand cavalry to reinforce him.

In the ninth month, Shi Hu greatly routed the Zhao soldiers at Yiqu. Liu Yin fled back to Shanggui. Shi Hu pressed his victory and pursued the Zhao army, leaving corpses along the road for a thousand li. Then Shanggui also fell, and Shi Hu captured Liu Xi, Liu Yin, and more than three thousand other Zhao princes, nobles, ministers, commanders, and other such officials. He killed them all.

Shi Hu forced all of the remaining Zhao civil and military officials, all the refugees west of the passes, and more than nine thousand members of the great families of Qinzhou and Yongzhou to relocate east to Xiangguo. He also buried alive more than five thousand of the Chuge Xiongnu of the Five Commandaries at Luoyang. Shi Hu advanced and attacked the Jimuqie Qiang tribe at Hexi, and he defeated them, taking captive tens of thousands of them. The regions of Qin and Long were thus all pacified by Later Zhao.

The Di king Pu Hong and the Qiang chieftain Yao Yizhong both surrendered to Shi Hu as well. Shi Hu petitioned to have Pu Hong appointed as Chief of military affairs of the Six Tribes, and Yao Yizhong appointed as Commander of the Left of the Six Tribes. He forced a hundred and fifty thousand tribes of the Di and Qiang to relocate to Sizhou and Jizhou.



As for the Wang Jun's, those are two separate Wang Jun's. The one who participated in the War of the Eight Princes and the war against Liu Yuan is 王浚, while the one of Wu conquest fame is 王濬.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby greencactaur » Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:15 am

I have a question about Huang Zhong. When it says he killed Xiahou Yuan, does that mean he physically killed him or was it his unit that did it? I wouldn't be to surprised if there were soldiers who killed an officer, but their superior took credit for it.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:40 am

greencactaur wrote:I have a question about Huang Zhong. When it says he killed Xiahou Yuan, does that mean he physically killed him or was it his unit that did it? I wouldn't be to surprised if there were soldiers who killed an officer, but their superior took credit for it.


Unit, usually when an officer was killed in the melee of combat among soldiers then the commander was given credit as you noted.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby SaotomeGenma » Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:46 am

First of all, I am new here but I am a long time lurker, hello everyone.

Anyway, I would like to talk and ask questions about Gao Shun cause I don't think he got the recognition for what he did in history

- Was he the best general in Lu Bu's army as I interpret it from his achievements?
- And what rank does he compared to other generals - his troops were often loaned to other generals like Wei Xu, right? so he was a low rank general and Wei Xu, Huo Cheng, Song Xian & Cao Xiu were higher? Was he above or below or equal to Zhang Liao in rank?
- Did Cao Cao want to recruit him? I think I read somewhere Cao Cao said "anything to say" was for Gao Shun to say he yield and Cao Cao would have welcomed him to his rank.
- Why would he be so loyal when Lu Bu treated him badly? Is he one of the most loyal person in SGZ ?

I came to appreciate him more cause of the Manhwa "Ravage of Time" where he was a bad ass elite unit leader but his death was changed (died fighting to the end against Cao Chun in White Gate tower) and I think his biography was already bad ass enough so I want to know more and want more people to appreciate this blindly loyal guy.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:06 am

Welcome to the forum SaotomeGenma, glad you took the plunge

Gao Shun, among the 3k history community is a popular figure for his advice, honesty and skill. Unfortunately Gao Shun doesn't have an SGZ and so there is limited information about him and the structure of Lu Bu's ranks

1) Quite possibly, he seems the best with the records we have and he clearly shone under Lu Bu

2) Unknown. I wouldn't say low ranked, he was the man given charge against Liu Bei, he had the shock troops, he was the planned joint-commander to hold Lu Bu's city. He had less favour then Wei Xu, hard to know with the others as their military ranks are unclear

3) I think that comes from the novel.

4) I'm not sure I would put him in the most loyal list. While the neglect at times would have provided a reason to defect, he still had the elite troops and given miliatry tasks that he might not get under a new commander, Lu Bu was lenient and kind to his subordinates and was able to accept Gao Shun criticizing him, positions Gao Shun is not guaranteed under others. Lu Bu clearly had some charisma and it is hard to know how long Gao Shun had served Lu Bu but that can make it harder to leave, it requires effort and sacrifice to defect.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:59 am

Yīngxióngjì states: [Gāo] Shùn in his conduct was pure and dignified, he did not drink wine, and he did not accept gifts. He commanded over 700 troops called the Thousand Men. Their armor and weapons were all elite and in good order, and every time they attacked none were not defeated. They were called the Breaking-Lines Battalion. Shùn always admonished [Lǚ] Bù, saying: “Those who destroy their own family and state are not necessarily those lacking loyal servants or wise subordinates, but those who do not use them and that is all. General, when you act, you do not consider matters thoroughly, are always fond of speaking wrongly, and your mistakes are uncountable.” Bù knew he was loyal, but could not use his [warning]. Bù after Hǎo Méng rebelled neglected Shùn further. Because Wèi Xù was an outer and inner relative, [Lǚ Bù] always took Shùn’s commanded troops and gave them to Xù. When it was time for attack and battle, then Shùn would be returned command of Xù’s commanded troops. Shùn also to the end did not have any resentment.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby PeanutButterToast » Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:49 am

I hope this is the right topic.

How accurate was the Three Kingdoms 2010 series in depicting the characters and soldiers, in terms of costume design and armor? Did the 1994 series do it better or worse?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby SaotomeGenma » Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:34 pm

what kind of recruitment system Cao Cao had? He was to be able to recruit even his ex enemies officers

And how does he was able to secure their loyalty?
he was a eunuch grandson while his main army the Qingzhou corps is ex yellow turban, also his generals ranged from ex Dong Zhou/Lu Bu (Zhang Liao), ex Yuan Shao (Zhang He), ex Ma Teng (Pang De), ex Liu Biao (Cai Mao, Wen Pin), and even people that straight up tried to kill him (Zhang Xiu, Jia Xu). How did he was able to make these people fight for him to the death?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:23 pm

For early years, word of mouth, reputation for scholarship, friends of friends, family and friends he knew, whoever was in the area's he controlled. Once he had a proper infrastructure, either using those who had defected or come to him (usually such gets get a nice sounding rank to encourage others) and seeing how they do Or if within Cao Cao's ranks, those appointed to handle recommendations ranked local figures of note and sent that on and they got appointment, if they did well they rose through ranks (and frankly if you were a senior member of the gentry, you rose through ranks anyway)

Opposing generals defecting or serving the victor was normal, if you did well for the opposing side then the new master will want to use your talents. Rarely was there personal anonymity between officers of rival factions (or officers to a rival warlord) or even between warlords (though there are exceptions). Your master lost (or is going to lose), refusing to serve is honourable but a career killer unless your wealthy enough to retire, warlord can't be seen to reject new talent so will have to declare delight. Though Cao Cao and other warlords used families as hostages to try to ensure loyalty.

Much the same things that inspired Cao Cao's "didn't serve anyone else before" would have inspired the new generals: Cao Cao's success (particularly if you just lost to him), style of government, kind/rich treatment once over, charisma and strong personality. Over time making friends and a home in Cao Cao's lands gives a tug towards it, the rewards to your family if you die well.

On individual level: The Turbans came to a deal that gave them independence and feeding after years of moving from place to place with some devastating losses (though they did not fight for him to the death), Zhang Liao was part of a defeated faction, Zhang He defected (possibly due to way wind was blowing) due to concerns at how things in Yuan Shao's camp. Pang De fell into Cao Cao's hands and had family commitments behind his loyalty, Wen Pin was part of a surrendered faction and kept in Jing, Cai Mao fades from history.

Zhang Xiu and Jia Xu made a calculation about their position and who was best placed for their future. The death of Cao Ang and co was clearly awkward but such is war and Cao Cao knew he had messed up. Cao Cao also couldn't afford to be seen as petty in terms of PR and recruitment or, on the eve of a major war, reject two very talented figures who if rebuffed could raid his flanks.

Hope that helps
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