Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DragonAtma » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:25 pm

G is almost certainly Zhang Xian's son, at least going by KMA.

There are far too many Zhang Yis.

-=-=-

And now for the return of Questions On Lesser-Known Governors/Inspectors!

I know that Guo Gong was inspector* of Yu at the time Zhang Miao and Lu Bu rebelled against Cao Cao and nearly attacked Juancheng (but was talked out of it by Xun Yu), apparently he had "tens of thousands" of men. Do we know anything else about him?

* Pretty much everyone with a pulse claimed to be Inspector of Yu (at the minimum Guo Gong, Liu Bei, and Sun Ben) in 194, but if Guo Gong had tens of thousands of troops he was quite possibly the de facto governor, if not de jure.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby capnnerefir » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:23 pm

There really isn't anything recorded about Guo Gong outside of the story in Xun Yu's SGZ. I do have some speculations on his allegiances, though.

He may have replaced Sun Ben as Yuan Shu's Inspector of Yu, since Sun Ben was serving as Grand Commandant of Danyang at that point. However, this seems unlikely, given the details of the SGZ's account.

Then, Guo Gong, Inspector of Yuzhou, arrived beneath the city gates with some tens of thousands of men. Some said that he was one of Lü Bu’s accomplices, and all were in fear. Guo Gong asked for an audience with Xun Yu. Xun Yu was about to go out to meet him, but Xiahou Dun and others said, “Sir, you are in charge of this whole province. Should you go, your life would be endangered. Do not go.” Xun Yu replied, “Guo Gong has not been a close friend with Zhang Miao and the others. By his coming so speedily, he must not have decided on a plan of action yet. If I go talk to him before his mind is set, even if he doesn’t take in my words, at most he would stand neutral. However, if we doubt him right at the start, he might come up with a plan against us in anger.” Guo Gong, seeing that Xun Yu had no trace of fear, thought that Juancheng must be difficult to conquer. Therefore, he led his men and left.


Given the history of violence between Cao Cao's army and Yuan Shu's, it seems implausible that one of Yuan Shu's highest-ranking men would be able to bring an army into Yan and request an audience with Xun Yu. Since Guo Gong was opportunistic, rather than immediately hostile, I believe it is safe to say that he was not Yuan Shu's affiliate.

There are limited other options. Tao Qian tried to claim Yu, but while Guo Gong's appointment predates Liu Bei's, it is even less likely that one of Tao Qian's men could have requested such an audience, as Cao Cao and Tao Qian were actively at war at that very moment. And Tao QIan's territory in Yu never really extended west of Pei in any case. While a Pei-based Inspector of Yu could theoretical have made his way to Jiyin, the open hostilities between Cao Cao and Tao Qian render it unlikely.

Yuan Shao tried to insert his own Inspector of Yu in 191, though his man was driven out by Sun Jian and Yuan Shu. I haven't found any evidence to suggest that Yuan Shao attempted such a thing again, so it seems unlikely that Guo Gong could have been one of his subordinates. And given that Cao Cao was acting as Yuan Shao's subordinate at the time, Guo Gong's opportunistic views on the situation make affiliation with Cao Cao's nominal overlord unlikely.

Though Liu Biao held extensive territory along Yu's southwest border (namely the commanderies of Nanyang and Jiangxia), he never had a history of appointing subordinate Inspectors to other provinces, so it is improbable that Guo Gong was associated with him.

Li Jue's regime is, to my mind, the most likely answer. Based in Sili, Li Jue did still extend some influence into Yu province and would certainly have had reason to attempt to establish his own man in the area. Li Jue and Cao Cao had a strained relationship, with Li Jue recognizing Cao Cao's rule over Yan while remaining uncertain towards him. Given their history, Guo Gong's opportunistic intentions seem quite appropriate. And given that Zhang Miao was based in Chenliu and Lü Bu entered Yan from Henei, an affiliate of Li Jue's regime would have ample time to learn about these movements and react to them. So personally, I think it is most likely that Guo Gong was appointed by Li Jue's regime.

As for the size of his army, it seems impossible that any of the candidates for his overlord could have fielded tens of thousands of men in Yu province. None of them had that kind of control over the region, especially after Cao Cao's thorough defeat of Yuan Shu in the previous year. Most likely, the size of Guo Gong's army is exaggerated to flatter Xun Yu.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DragonAtma » Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:20 am

I see one other possibility: he was appointed by Zhang Miao or another Yan official (in a "You're inspector of Yu; you just have to conquer it to make it official" way) before the Yan civil war. When Zhang Miao DID revolt, Guo Gong had to choose a side; Xun Yu's bluff convinced him not to oppose Cao Cao.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby TigerTally » Tue Aug 04, 2015 2:20 am

DragonAtma wrote:I see one other possibility: he was appointed by Zhang Miao or another Yan official (in a "You're inspector of Yu; you just have to conquer it to make it official" way) before the Yan civil war. When Zhang Miao DID revolt, Guo Gong had to choose a side; Xun Yu's bluff convinced him not to oppose Cao Cao.


This seems unlikely. Zhang Miao was just a commandery administrator, so he could not really appoint a provincial inspector which is higher than him. Moreover, it had been explictly pointed out by Xun Yu that Guo Gong was not very familiar with Zhang Miao.

Both written and online sources do not have an agreement on who appointed Guo Gong. Some say Yuan Shu, and some say the emperor.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DragonAtma » Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:27 pm

I know that from 196-197 (or 196-198?) Taishi Ci tried to form his own government to rival Sun Ce, and I know that he allied with the Shanyue.

Did he have any other allies? Was anyone known to have worked for him? He was only thirty in 196, so his son Taishi Xiang must have been too young to be serving him.

While we're at it, do we have any info on Liu Yao's second and third sons, Liu Shuo and Liu Shang? I know that they they grew up under Sun Quan (GOS 3 says their older brother Liu Ji was 14 in 197 when Liu Yao died) and held official posts under him, but that's about it.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Valvatorez » Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:05 am

Not sure if this has been asked or not, but was reading random bios and came across this: " In 208, Cao Cao gave pursuit to the fleeing Liu Bei at Changban. Cao Chun's men captured the enemy supplies, as well as two of Liu Bei's daughters" I didn't even know Liu Bei had any daughters :lol: So is there any info on them, specifically what happened after they were captured?
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby DragonAtma » Fri Aug 07, 2015 10:25 am

Back in 200 AD, equality was nowhere close to what it is now. As a result, they usually gloss over daughters.

So most likely they were married to Wei officers (possibly even Cao Chun).
Unless I specifically say otherwise, assume I am talking about historical Three Kingdoms, and not the novel.

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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:21 pm

TigerTally wrote:
LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:I remember from somewhere that Yuan Shu was suppose to have been considered a good general, however from my own recollection the majority of his victories were carried out by Sun Jian, and Sun Ce, or against very weak opponents. I was wondering if someone had more information about Yuan Shu's military accomplishments.


Yuan Shu? Really? I can barely recall any of his presence on the battlefield, let alone victory ...


From what I remember Yuan Shao tried to send an army to take control of the Yu province and Yuan Shu sent Sun Jian who drove them out. Also I believe Yuan Shu killed the inspector of Yang I think, and conquered that area north of the river.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Qu Hui » Thu Aug 13, 2015 7:44 am

TigerTally wrote:Yuan Shu? Really? I can barely recall any of his presence on the battlefield, let alone victory ...

Yuan Shu beat Chen Wen and seized Shouchun. In addition, he was responsible for bringing Lu Bu into Xu and defeated Liu Bei at Xiapi and then Guangling. Not anything spectacular, but decent before his ego blinded him.
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Re: Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Unread postby Bush Leagues » Thu Aug 13, 2015 10:19 am

Qu Hui wrote:Yuan Shu beat Chen Wen and seized Shouchun. In addition, he was responsible for bringing Lu Bu into Xu and defeated Liu Bei at Xiapi and then Guangling. Not anything spectacular, but decent before his ego blinded him.


That's a record with success against quality opposition on the face of it. Unless there was some glaring disparity of armies, I think Yuan Shu deserves some credit here as a decent, perhaps even good commander.
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