Three Kingdoms Questions (You Ask, We Answer)

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Unread postby The Sun Also Rises » Sat Sep 04, 2004 7:59 am

Ghost_of_Han wrote:Well I believe your refering to the "Seven worthies of the Bamboo grove".


I'm not sure since I know for a fact that the words Seven and Jian An are in there. Worthies was the one I was questioning. Different name for the same group possibly.

Ghost_of_Han wrote:I mean you can argue that untrue the last two were not, but they we're pretty young, I mean young enough not to be having sexual realtions so I feel they don't count.


What now? Emperor Xian reigned 31 years. I'm sure he hit puberty at some point :D

Ghost_of_Han wrote:Most people who slept with members of their own sex also slept with members of the opposite sex.


That could simply be a reference to actual sleep. In the novel, men of the same sex are constantly mentioned as having slept in the same bed. I haven't seen your reference book though so I may be judging without knowing much.
-011a5-400c974c;
User avatar
The Sun Also Rises
Student
 
Posts: 112
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2002 7:03 am
Location: NYC.

Unread postby Ghost_of_Han » Sat Sep 04, 2004 6:37 pm

[quote="The Sun Also Rises"][/quote]


[quote="Ghost_of_Han"]I mean you can argue that untrue the last two were not, but they we're pretty young, I mean young enough not to be having sexual realtions so I feel they don't count.[/quote]

What now? Emperor Xian reigned 31 years. I'm sure he hit puberty at some point :D

[/quote]

no I should have made it clear. I meant the emperors in the former Han, the last two last for a couple years a peice.

Last two former Han emperors
Han Pingdi (汉平帝), Liu Kan (刘衎), 1 -5 AD
Han Ruzi (汉孺子), Liu Ying (刘婴), 6 - 8 AD

And no by sleeping with them I am possitive they mean sex. You would be very surprised how wide spread Homosexuilty is in Ancient China. I think its funny that today we argue over same sex marriage when China has a it for over 2000 years.

Here is the link Liu Ce is talking about:

[url]http://s7.invisionfree.com/China_History_Forum/index.php?showtopic=231&hl=[/url] This one is just a breif talk about the Gay emperors, nice info though.

http://s7.invisionfree.com/China_Histor ... ic=613&hl=

This one is on the Gay emperor Han Aidi, the info is later in the thread. This subject will soon be covered more extensively at CHF, and anyone who is intersted and helping me work on it just PM me, or if you just have an interest keep you eyes pealed, I will be writing plenty on this subject later.
Ghost_of_Han
Apprentice
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon May 31, 2004 8:47 pm
Location: Michigan

Unread postby Lady Wu » Sat Sep 04, 2004 7:31 pm

People sleep with members of their same sex without engaging in sexual activities all the time. It is a sign of close friendship or brotherhood. The phrase "to share the same blanket and mattress" is used a lot without drawing so much as a glance from those strict neo-Confucians who would even condemn sexual relations with one's wife (beyond the need to procreate). For example, Cao Zhi's poem "To Cao Biao, Prince of Baima", has these lines:

何必同衾帱,然后展殷懃?


同衾帱 means "share blankets", that is, sleep on the same bed. Cao Zhi and Cao Biao are brothers, and if the phrase does imply sexual behaviour then it would be a case of incest. However, this poem has drawn nothing but praise from later scholars, which is good evidence that a homosexual reading is not necessary.

Consider also this passage from the HHS:

HHS chpt 53 wrote:姜肱字伯淮,彭城廣戚人也。家世名族。肱與二弟仲海、季江,俱以孝行著聞。其友愛天至,常共臥起。及各娶妻,兄弟相戀,不能別寑...


Jiang Gong, styled Bohuai, was a man from Guangqi in Pengcheng. He descends from a great family. He and his two younger brothers, Zhonghai and Jijiang, were all famous for their filial piety and good conduct. Their brotherly love for each other was so much that they often slept and did work together. When they eventually took wives, the brothers could not bear to be separated from each other and sleep apart...

Jiang Bohuai, Jiang Zhonghai, and Jiang Jijiang were praised for their brotherly affection, and the author equated that as something as good as filial piety and proper behaviour. Clearly they could not have been engaged in sexual actions when they slept in the same bed.

Your point about same sex marriage is false. China did not have same sex marriage. Sure, sometimes people have same-sex partners, but the practice has never been institutionalized and was frowned upon by the mainstream literati.

Oh and GoH, you may have turned off BBCode in your posts--check to see if the box saying "Disable BBCode in this post" is checked.
"Whatever you do, don't fall off the bridge! It'll be a pain to try to get back up again." - Private, DW 8
User avatar
Lady Wu
There's no better state than Wu
There's no better state than Wu
 
Posts: 12840
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 2:35 am
Location: Wu-ere else?

Unread postby Ghost_of_Han » Sat Sep 04, 2004 7:48 pm

Your point about same sex marriage is false. China did not have same sex marriage. Sure, sometimes people have same-sex partners, but the practice has never been institutionalized and was frowned upon by the mainstream literati.


I'm pretty sure its not, I could have sworn that I had read about it in realtion to Confusion. Confusions didn't that have that much of a problem with Same sex marriage, but they still expected you to reproduce. But I might have the wrong time period. I know in the Former Han when Han Aidi (stirctily gay emperor) reigned his lover dong xian who I'm sure you have heard of in realtion to cut sleeve, was I think considered an emperess, and that implies marriage.

Also Sun also rises its the:

Seven Sages of the Bamboo Grove (Zhulin Qixian 竹林七贤)
Ghost_of_Han
Apprentice
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon May 31, 2004 8:47 pm
Location: Michigan

Unread postby The Sun Also Rises » Sat Sep 04, 2004 8:10 pm

Also Sun also rises its the:

Seven Sages of the Bamboo Grove (Zhulin Qixian 竹林七贤)


No, that is a seperate group from the one I was speaking of. Seven Masters of the Jian'an Period (Jian'an Qizi 建安七子). Though oddly, I'm finding conflicting sources as to the membership...
-011a5-400c974c;
User avatar
The Sun Also Rises
Student
 
Posts: 112
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2002 7:03 am
Location: NYC.

Unread postby Lady Wu » Sat Sep 04, 2004 8:26 pm

Ghost_of_Han wrote:I'm pretty sure its not, I could have sworn that I had read about it in realtion to Confusion.

First, it's Confucius, and he wasn't confused. I'll eat my hat if you find a Confucian doctrine that admits gay marriage. In fact, I'll eat it if you find a reference to "same sex marriage" at all in any Confucianism-inspired text. It just wasn't an issue back then. Marriage was to create a family unit that continues the family line. A man took in a wife to set to order the family. The Yin and the Yang. Etc.

Confusions didn't that have that much of a problem with Same sex marriage, but they still expected you to reproduce.

That in itself is a contradiction. You can't reproduce (naturally) with a same sex partner.

But I might have the wrong time period. I know in the Former Han when Han Aidi (stirctily gay emperor) reigned his lover dong xian who I'm sure you have heard of in realtion to cut sleeve, was I think considered an emperess, and that implies marriage.

Confucian principles were used as the main state doctrine from mid-Former Han (the Confucian reformation of Dong Zhongshu onwards) to the fall of the Qing. Even if Aidi managed to promote Dong Xian to be empress without complaint from all his court, it doesn't imply either (a) marriage, or (b) the institutionalization of gay marriage. An emperor's sex life was very different from that of a normal man. An emperor was allowed to keep admitting people into his harem, and basically from Wudi onward emperors saw themselves as owning all the women in the realm. Any other man, on the other hand, is not permitted to have sexual relationships with whoever he likes--a complicated ceremony had to take place when he takes in a wife (concubines and maidservants were different--but they could not be considered wives). Though technically an emperor still needed to give legitimate reasons for making any one of his concubines empress, since the empress is supposed to be "Mother of the Realm" and one who can set a good example to all mothers, there were emperors who saw themselves above the law/rites and omitted this step. Aidi probably made Dong Xian empress but he wouldn't be considered legit by the rest of the court.
"Whatever you do, don't fall off the bridge! It'll be a pain to try to get back up again." - Private, DW 8
User avatar
Lady Wu
There's no better state than Wu
There's no better state than Wu
 
Posts: 12840
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 2:35 am
Location: Wu-ere else?

Unread postby Ghost_of_Han » Sun Sep 05, 2004 12:42 pm

Well Wu Xiaojie, I don't know enough to condratict you, but I still believe that some of what i said has truth. I willl bow out for now and do some reaserch.

I was reading abook and came across this:

Sun Quan(孙权) was considered very brave (it didn't seem as much in the novel). In fact when the first Ming Emperor [Ming Taizu (明太祖) I think?] was constructing his tomb in Nanjing (南京), he allowed Sun Quan's tomb to remain as a guard, even thought if made it harder to get to Ming Taizu's tomb mausoleum.


Source: Chronicle of the Chinese Emperors by Ann Paludan. Page 65.

Thats basically a driect quote just with some added in info, but was Sun Quan considered Brave? was that true about his tomb? And if so does that mean its around today? Some people disagree with my fact here, and say the writer probaley ment his achomplishments, and ideas or other reading I should do?
Ghost_of_Han
Apprentice
 
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon May 31, 2004 8:47 pm
Location: Michigan

Unread postby Lord_Zhuge000 » Sun Sep 05, 2004 7:40 pm

Sorry guys, I've only just joined this thread and I've got a simple, although off-topic question.

Liu Bei's first son, is his name Liu Chan or Liu Shan, and why is it different in different texts? The same with Cao Cao's general, Xu Chu or Xu Zhu?
User avatar
Lord_Zhuge000
Sage
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:48 am
Location: Cambridge, United Kingdom

Unread postby Li Ruiyue » Sun Sep 05, 2004 8:50 pm

I think it is Liu Chan and Xu Chu. I think the KOEI games changed these for some reason...
User avatar
Li Ruiyue
Innocent Soul
 
Posts: 2497
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 4:05 pm
Location: United Kingdom

Unread postby Lord_Zhuge000 » Sun Sep 05, 2004 8:53 pm

Li Ruiyue wrote:I think it is Liu Chan and Xu Chu. I think the KOEI games changed these for some reason...


Thanks, though I thought it was Chan in DW and Shan in SGYY? I'll have a look next time I play/read.
User avatar
Lord_Zhuge000
Sage
 
Posts: 260
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:48 am
Location: Cambridge, United Kingdom

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved

 
cron