Liu Bei's curse?

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Liu Bei's curse?

Unread postby Sun Ce, lord of Wu » Sun Mar 02, 2003 12:25 am

Whilst reading rotk I noticed that whenever Yuande joined, allied or whatever with a faction they later were defeated somehow. Maybe its not a curse but you never know.

Allied with Lu Bu and Yuan Shu (I think, correct me if im wrong), later defeated by Cao Cao

Joins with Yuan Shao, later defeated by Cao Cao

Joins Liu Biao, He gets sick and dies and his land is taken over by Cao Cao

Allies with Wu, they eventually lose

These are just a few, tell me what you guys think. or maybe I think to much :?
Yuan Shu: Hey, Gongsun Zan, what about CRAP?
Gongsun Zan: ...What about it?
Yuan Shu: THAT'S WHAT YOU ARE! AHAHAHAHAHA!
Gongsun Zan: ...I should have seen that coming.
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Unread postby CK » Sun Mar 02, 2003 1:23 am

It is entirely possible that he joined these warlords that you mentioned not only because they had the power to resist and even overcome Cao Cao, it could also be due to the fact that they are simply the closest allies that were available to him and had common interests in "finishing" Cao Cao.

Also, rather than focusing on Liu Bei being in the side which lost, why can't we stress Cao Cao's military capability etc?

Furthermore I have a wierd theory to offer. We all know that Liu Bei is ambitious. Could he possibly have hoped that in the chaos which would ensue, he can benefit from the original warlords lands etc. Evidently, he did succeed to a certain extent with Liu Biao :twisted:
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Unread postby Iznoach, Legendary Dragon » Sun Mar 02, 2003 3:47 am

Yes, I'd agree that it's more a sign of Cao Cao's prowess than any direct cause of Liu Bei. After Xuande's stay with Mengde, notice that most of Cao's conquests happened because he was chasing Xuande.
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Unread postby Sun Ce, lord of Wu » Sun Mar 02, 2003 3:51 am

hmm why didn't I think of that?
Yuan Shu: Hey, Gongsun Zan, what about CRAP?
Gongsun Zan: ...What about it?
Yuan Shu: THAT'S WHAT YOU ARE! AHAHAHAHAHA!
Gongsun Zan: ...I should have seen that coming.
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Unread postby Mengdez New Book » Sun Mar 02, 2003 5:08 am

IMO, Liu Bei shoud be the one odd to be respected by people. Let's compare him with Cao Cao and Sun Quan. Cao Cao although build the whole Wei empire by himself, still, he had political influential because his grandfather and father were the officers of Han. Then, because he came from Xiahou family, he had many talented relatives helping him. This certainly help him a lot in creating the Wei Empire. For Sun Quan, well, as you all know, he got many advantages from his father and brother who left a good property for him before they passed away. But, when we come to Liu Bei, he had almost nothing and still he managed to build Shu.

I don't know whether it was really a curse or what but as i mentioned above, Liu Bei got nothing, so he needed to humble himself below all the Lords he has followed. Man, for a man who have great ambitious like Liu Bei, it was not easy to do so. Anyway, i think he worked under these Lords mostly because he wanted to include himself into the stage of that era. If he didn't follow any Lords, i don't think he will have any chance at all at that time. Well, another hidden plan for Liu Bei maybe was to at least have a settlement from this Lord if he showed his reputation under the Lord he followed. I don't think before he invited Kong Ming, he had any plan to take over the lead of a Lord, for Tao Qian case, probably he was lucky because Tao Qian was too old until he had to give his position. Liu Bei change completely when Kong Ming joined, he became more ambitious after the talk with the evil Kong Ming who 'guide' him to take control of Jing Zhou and Yi Zhou. :lol:
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Unread postby Starscream » Sun Mar 02, 2003 5:50 am

Interesting topic. Actually, if we think of Liu Bei as a world-class criminal (from Cao Cao's opinion), we'd understand why anyone who attempted to shield him would eventually get popped or confronted by Cao Cao. Cao Cao's ambitions were endless, those people Liu Bei seeked protection from were more or less a thorn in the flesh, a hindrance to domination. With Liu Bei as catalyst, Cao Cao then found the reason to wipe them out one by one and also strengthen his political stand. Of course, not everyone got defeated, Sun Quan and Liu Bei survived more or less.

So was Liu Bei a curse? I'd think that Liu Bei was not as ominous as a comet streaking across the sky, but rather, he was too great a rival for Cao Cao, someone who could challenge Cao Cao's political stand. If I were Cao Cao, I think I'd have him assasinated... :lol:
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Unread postby Wen Yang » Sun Mar 02, 2003 3:09 pm

madaboutck wrote:It is entirely possible that he joined these warlords that you mentioned not only because they had the power to resist and even overcome Cao Cao, it could also be due to the fact that they are simply the closest allies that were available to him and had common interests in "finishing" Cao Cao.


That would be true for everyone he listed except Liu Biao. He was happy with his current position and never bothered waging war on anyone. He had a strong disposition against Cao Cao like Liu Bei did, but he never fought unless he was directly threatened himself.
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Unread postby CK » Sun Mar 02, 2003 9:15 pm

[quote="Mengdez New Book"][/quote]

Indeed, it was Kong Ming's plans that somehow made Liu Bei ambitious enough to challenge Cao Cao and Sun Quan. However, it was a feasible plan and it required one merit of Liu Bei, his "name" of Liu. As such, I wouldn't say that he had almost nothing for he did have this tremendously "credible" asset which the other warlords except Liu Biao and Liu Zhang had.

Certainly, if not for his "Liu" name, I wonder whether he could have seek refuge with Liu Biao and Liu Zhang and eventually "having" their lands.
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Unread postby Pang Shiyuan » Sun Mar 02, 2003 9:35 pm

madaboutck wrote:
Mengdez New Book wrote:


Indeed, it was Kong Ming's plans that somehow made Liu Bei ambitious enough to challenge Cao Cao and Sun Quan. However, it was a feasible plan and it required one merit of Liu Bei, his "name" of Liu. As such, I wouldn't say that he had almost nothing for he did have this tremendously "credible" asset which the other warlords except Liu Biao and Liu Zhang had.

Certainly, if not for his "Liu" name, I wonder whether he could have seek refuge with Liu Biao and Liu Zhang and eventually "having" their lands.


Just a quick question, CK...

One other minor warlord shared the same surname...Liu Du. Was he related in any way to Gao Zu?
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Unread postby CK » Sun Mar 02, 2003 11:06 pm

Pang Shiyuan wrote:Just a quick question, CK...

One other minor warlord shared the same surname...Liu Du. Was he related in any way to Gao Zu?


You got me Ron. Never had I once thought of him. The SGZ I got is a "translated" version and not the original, hence many annotations which may include Liu Du's biography is missing. Hence, I hope someone help us in this. At least in SGYY, nothing is mentioned about his background, except that he let his son, Liu Xian, to try to fend off Zhuge Liang. Also, when Liu Bei "conquered" Lingling, there is no mention of the two having a renewal as kinsmen but the mere statement that Liu Du continues as the de facto governor. As a result, I would say that Liu Du may be just a "common" Liu.

However, if anyone disagrees and have actual prove, please do kindly enlighten us. :wink:
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