Why Wei Yan over Zhang Fei?

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Why Wei Yan over Zhang Fei?

Unread postby Iznoach, Legendary Dragon » Thu Feb 27, 2003 10:47 am

I would like to know why, in your esteemed opinions, Liu Bei picked Wei Yan over Zhang Fei to be governor of Hanzhong after the victory there. Now I have nothing against Wei Yan, but come on, lets look at the facts. Zhang Fei was with Liu Bei much longer, and had much merits. He was probably the most responsible for Liu Bei being able to attain Yizhou. Wei Yan indeed was with Liu Bei on the campaign, but had to be bailed out by Huang Zhong on occasion because he was a glory hound. Later, Zhang Fei had a key defeat over Zhang He. So why, pray tell, was Zhang Fei passed up? Discuss.
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Unread postby Hidoshi » Thu Feb 27, 2003 11:23 am

I think this is easily attributed to Chang Fei's temper. Would you trust him to be a governor? He's not intellectually inclined and a position of political importance would probably irritate him beyond belief. Chang Fei seems to me to be the sort of person at home on the battlefield, farming, or in a pub eating and drinking with his family and friends, not a stuffy governor in council with his ministers. Wei Yan was a much more controlled man in matters of state and this more than likely lead to Liu Pei's decision.
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Unread postby Iznoach, Legendary Dragon » Thu Feb 27, 2003 11:44 am

Hidoshi wrote:Wei Yan was a much more controlled man in matters of state and this more than likely lead to Liu Pei's decision.


I'd like to know where you got that idea from. :lol: As demonstrated from his youth, he was rash and out of control. Later, in Chuko's fifth campaign, after Chuko died and Yang Yi was put in charge, Wei Yan said something to the effect of "I'll not be a rearguard for any civilian!"...which leads me to believe that he would have even less patience for the position of Governor. Also, Chang Fei was not nearly as stupid as he's portrayed in the SGYY, he showed many signs of having quite an agile brain. Granted, he was hot-headed with his subordinates, he was extremely loyal and had the utmost respect for Liu Pei; he would have made a good Governor imo. 8-)
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Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Thu Feb 27, 2003 1:49 pm

Well Zhang Fei was a man who could not handle the pressure of his time. We often see that men of destinction act violently because of it. Zhang Fei, Gan Ning, Zhu Huan, Cao Cao, Liu Bei..you name it. But I think Zhang Fei's alcoholism made it worse for him. Wei Yan, I compare him to Lü Meng, and therefore I see more reason for him to be the Prefect or the Grand Administrator.
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Thu Feb 27, 2003 5:05 pm

I guess Liu BEi was worry because Zhang Fei did lose XuZhou to Lu Bu.
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Unread postby Wen Yang » Thu Feb 27, 2003 10:58 pm

Zhou Gongjin wrote:Well Zhang Fei was a man who could not handle the pressure of his time. We often see that men of destinction act violently because of it. Zhang Fei, Gan Ning, Zhu Huan, Cao Cao, Liu Bei..you name it. But I think Zhang Fei's alcoholism made it worse for him. Wei Yan, I compare him to Lü Meng, and therefore I see more reason for him to be the Prefect or the Grand Administrator.


I dont know if I would compare him to Lu Meng... but I agree that Yide's problem with alcohol was why. Zhang Fei was born to be a general IMO, not a governor. He was killed while in chage of a militrary force, so how more so would being in command of civil officials hurt him. As soon as he beat them they'ld murder his ass.
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Unread postby Elemental » Fri Feb 28, 2003 12:19 am

Zhang Fei was too achoholic! He would get drunk and lose the province. Liu Bei did not trust Zhang Fei, I guess. Wei Yan was probably alot smarter.
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Unread postby Wen Yang » Fri Feb 28, 2003 12:22 am

Lord Zhuge wrote:Zhang Fei was too achoholic! He would get drunk and lose the province. Liu Bei did not trust Zhang Fei, I guess. Wei Yan was probably alot smarter.


Liu Bei completely trusted Zhang Fei, but he had common sense like you or me, and knew Zhang Fei was too drunk to fit the governorship. He knew it would be for his own good not to be given the post.
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Fri Feb 28, 2003 5:39 am

Both were pretty equal IMO and Wei Yan was in no way more rational than Zhang Fei if we are comparing with how they deal with human relations. Wei Yan was known to be a hot tempered person and many of his collegues tend to avoid having conflicts with him. However, his nemesis Yang Yi would have none of it and as a result, their relationship was like fire and water (according to Wei Yan's SGZ bio).

Perhaps, the reason is simply because Liu Bei wanted to promote new talents within his forces?? I don't think one can build a huge empire by merely depending on a small handful of talented generals. :D
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Unread postby Iznoach, Legendary Dragon » Fri Feb 28, 2003 6:06 am

Zhou Gongjin wrote:Well Zhang Fei was a man who could not handle the pressure of his time. We often see that men of destinction act violently because of it. Zhang Fei, Gan Ning, Zhu Huan, Cao Cao, Liu Bei..you name it. But I think Zhang Fei's alcoholism made it worse for him. Wei Yan, I compare him to Lü Meng, and therefore I see more reason for him to be the Prefect or the Grand Administrator.


Indeed, you make good points. But while I think Wei Yan was talented, he was not near Lü Meng's level. Lü Meng was a thinker first, in addition to that he was a great general. Wei Yan was first a fighter, likewise Zhang Fei. However, I think we see more evidence of Zhang Fei's...what, mental prowess?...than we do of Wei Yans. Also, Great Deer has a great point that both men were known to be hotheads. However, of the two Zhang Fei showed more respect throughout his career to authority figures than did Wei Yan.

Zhugeliang wrote:I guess Liu BEi was worry because Zhang Fei did lose XuZhou to Lu Bu.


Wow, good point. I had totally forgotten about that. However, that was much earlier on, since when I'm pretty sure Zhang Fei learned his lesson. Remember, it's after this event that Zhang Fei starts to show his "mental prowess", with ruses and such.

Great Deer wrote:Perhaps, the reason is simply because Liu Bei wanted to promote new talents within his forces?? I don't think one can build a huge empire by merely depending on a small handful of talented generals.


Good point, but I don't think it's wise to forsake your closest and longest served generals, especially when it comes to a position of such importance. I notice Wei Yan was rapidly promoted once he joined Xuande's service; I wonder why he was promoted so swiftly? From his SGZ bio, I don't see to many great feets warranting such a fast rise, maybe Liu Bei feared his wrath?

All those who said... wrote:...Zhang Fei was too much of a drunk...


Well, I don't think this is so. Zhang Fei was already a renowned (sp?) alcoholic before he was left in charge of Xuzhou, and it didn't stop Liu Bei then, did it?
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straight up weed no angel dust, label us Notorious..."--Biggie
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