Guan Yu

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Guan Yu

Unread postby LittleConqueror » Tue Jul 02, 2002 3:25 am

Now, I'm not a big Guan Yu supporter, but it seems like no one here likes here. You make him to be a bigger loser than Ma Su. Is Guan Yu really that bad in history and that the novel over praises him that much? Or does everyone here just look at what happened at Jing and sees Guan Yu losing Jing for Shu? Sure, Guan Yu is over rated, probaly the most over rated person in the novel, but I can't imagine Guan Yu doing nothing in his entire career as an officer of Liu Bei.
"Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence"
User avatar
LittleConqueror
Scholar
 
Posts: 347
Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2002 12:08 am
Location: Outside your house, yelling taunts at you.

Unread postby Stefanos » Tue Jul 02, 2002 4:18 am

Some people base his entire career off his loss of Jingzhou. I think Guan Yu was very noble and successful as a general for Liu Bei. I also think that he was arrogant, ignorant, and was quick to temper. He, like Ma Su, brought upon his own destruction by failing to listen to Zhuge Jin, who offered to repave the alliance between Wu and Shu. Ma Su, with that hot head of his, did not listen to Wang Ping and camped on a high standing area, where he was easily surrounded. Thus he was executed, and thus Guan Yu was attacked, and captured, and put to death.
I told you I get paid for every letter.. like abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
User avatar
Stefanos
我的甜孩子
 
Posts: 1004
Joined: Wed Jun 26, 2002 4:08 pm
Location: Dont get on the plane.

Unread postby Han Xin » Tue Jul 02, 2002 4:26 am

Lu Bu in Romance of the Three Kingdoms was very similar to the historical Guan Yu. Strong, but ultimately a moron, cowards, and treacherous person...
User avatar
Han Xin
Shu Emperor
 
Posts: 1244
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 1:20 am
Location: In the middle between Love and Lust. ^_^

Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Tue Jul 02, 2002 5:33 am

I have to agree with Han Xin. Guan Yu lacked the insight and wisdom to be a really good leader or commander. His God status was aquired only through fictional things.
Guan Yu in SGYY was an a pompous idiot, Guan Yu in SGZ is a questionable leader and in no way worthy of being God of war.
I don't like Guan Yu because he ultimately was destroyed by a child who had no military experience or even rank. The young genius Lu Xun, together with Lü Meng slayed the God of War. Irony, pure irony.
He who exercises government by means of his virtue may be compared to the north polar star, which keeps its place and all the stars turn towards it.
-孔夫子
User avatar
Zhou Gongjin
鋼のチビ
 
Posts: 3357
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:49 pm
Location: the Doghouse

Unread postby James » Tue Jul 02, 2002 8:21 am

Han Xin wrote:Lu Bu in Romance of the Three Kingdoms was very similar to the historical Guan Yu. Strong, but ultimately a moron, cowards, and treacherous person...

Ha! How can you compare Guan Yu to Lu Bu? How are they so similar? How is Guan Yu as much the immoral traitor that was Lu Bu? He was not foolish at all and he was miles away from being a coward.
Kongming’s Archives – Romance of the Three Kingdoms Novel, History and Games
“ They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
  — Ben Franklin
User avatar
James
Sausaged Fish
Sausaged Fish
 
Posts: 17937
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:21 pm
Location: Happy Valley, UT

Unread postby Han Xin » Tue Jul 02, 2002 8:50 am

Zhuge Kongming wrote:Ha! How can you compare Guan Yu to Lu Bu? How are they so similar? How is Guan Yu as much the immoral traitor that was Lu Bu? He was not foolish at all and he was miles away from being a coward.



Coward:
Twice surrendered to an enemy without any good reason other to safe his sorry head. Lu Bu only did it once.
Wouldn't dare to attack Wei and raid their supply, but attack an unsuspected allied instead. Lu Bu attack Xia Pi (SGYY) while Liu Bei was away kicking Yuan Shu A$$...

Immoral:
Try to steal a dead man wife. Atleast when Lu Bu attacked Dong Zhou, he thought that Dong Zhou did the immoral act by stealing his wife. That is not the case for Guan Yu.

Moron:
Except for killing another moron general by the name of Yan Liang, Guan Yu never did anything.
User avatar
Han Xin
Shu Emperor
 
Posts: 1244
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 1:20 am
Location: In the middle between Love and Lust. ^_^

Unread postby Mega Zarak » Tue Jul 02, 2002 10:26 am

Zhou Gongjin wrote:I don't like Guan Yu because he ultimately was destroyed by a child who had no military experience or even rank. The young genius Lu Xun, together with Lü Meng slayed the God of War. Irony, pure irony.


Lu Xun wasn't a child then. He was pretty much grown up already (183 A.D. - 245 A.D.). At 219 A.D., Lu Xun was already 36 years old.

If I'm not wrong, I heard lots of compliments from Wu supporters going in Lu Xun and Lu Meng's way (esp. Lu Xun). Considering that it took the cream of the war talents in Wu to bring down Guan Yu (plus the fact that he was away and did not have a chance to engage Wu in a conventional battle), I feel that some credits if not much should be given to Guan Yu.

Furthermore, as I've stated in my previous post, Guan Yu was tasked to defend Jing Zhou for quite sometime. In fact, he did it from 211 A.D. all the way beyond 214 A.D. (the year Liu Bei accquired Yi Zhou). He was the cornerstone of the young Shu empire without which Liu Bei's army in Yi Zhou would be caught in the middle. Hence, I would like to dispute Han Xin's statement that Guan Yu did absolutely nothing for Shu.
User avatar
Mega Zarak
Grand Tutor of Wei
 
Posts: 1106
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2002 2:38 am
Location: North of the River

Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Tue Jul 02, 2002 1:30 pm

Great Deer wrote:
Lu Xun wasn't a child then. He was pretty much grown up already (183 A.D. - 245 A.D.). At 219 A.D., Lu Xun was already 36 years old.


Oh yes but that is what Guan Yu himself called him.

Great Deer wrote:If I'm not wrong, I heard lots of compliments from Wu supporters going in Lu Xun and Lu Meng's way (esp. Lu Xun). Considering that it took the cream of the war talents in Wu to bring down Guan Yu (plus the fact that he was away and did not have a chance to engage Wu in a conventional battle), I feel that some credits if not much should be given to Guan Yu.


Still he was the one who provoked the attack and lost it. Besides, Lu Xun had little experience other than administration, so the cream of the war talents would be Lü Meng only. And look at any KOEI game, Guan Yu is always better than Lü Meng and Lu Xun.

Great Deer wrote:Furthermore, as I've stated in my previous post, Guan Yu was tasked to defend Jing Zhou for quite sometime. In fact, he did it from 211 A.D. all the way beyond 214 A.D. (the year Liu Bei accquired Yi Zhou). He was the cornerstone of the young Shu empire without which Liu Bei's army in Yi Zhou would be caught in the middle. Hence, I would like to dispute Han Xin's statement that Guan Yu did absolutely nothing for Shu.


He could have done more if he hadn't been so foolish as to underestimate Wu and its potential. It was mostly Guan Yu's reputation that kept Wei initially out of JIngzhou, and it was the fact that Sun Quan was a relative of Liu Bei that he did not invade JIngzhou without a reason, not because of Guan Yu.
He who exercises government by means of his virtue may be compared to the north polar star, which keeps its place and all the stars turn towards it.
-孔夫子
User avatar
Zhou Gongjin
鋼のチビ
 
Posts: 3357
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2002 3:49 pm
Location: the Doghouse

Unread postby LittleConqueror » Tue Jul 02, 2002 1:44 pm

So, basically there are two views on Guan Yu. One view looks at how he lost Jing and started the end of Shu and announced him as a big time arrogent idiot loser. Yet others say that though he was noble, he was arrogent and still lose Jing in the end. But, wasn't Guan Yu ordered to attack Cao Cao by Liu Bei, which gave Lu Xun and Lu Meng a very good chance to attack. Plus, Mi Fang and Fu Shriuen both betrayed and Liu Feng didn't send any help. I mean, Guan Yu had to fight Pang De, Xu Huang, Cao Ren and Yu Jin of Wei (yeah Yu Jin screwed up but he was one of the five main generals at the time, right?) and Lu Xun, Lu Meng, Han Dang, Pan Zhang, Zhu Ran, Zhou Tai and others of Wu. And Lu Meng did out number him. So, it seems to me that Liu Bei was going to lose Jing eventually, it's just that he ordered Guan Yu to attack and hastened the loss.
"Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence"
User avatar
LittleConqueror
Scholar
 
Posts: 347
Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2002 12:08 am
Location: Outside your house, yelling taunts at you.

Unread postby Mega Zarak » Tue Jul 02, 2002 3:09 pm

Zhou Gongjin wrote:
Oh yes but that is what Guan Yu himself called him.

I wouldn't call a 36 year old man a child. If Guan Yu said that, it might be due to the fact that Guan Yu was older and he meant it as an insult. Furthermore, a person at 36 is usually at his prime. Therefore, Lu Xun wasn't one who was just good at doing admin. I've remembered some Wu supporters saying that Lu Xun did a good job in suppressing the Shan Yue and in some occasions, he was greatly outnumbered. :wink:

Zhou Gongjin wrote:
Still he was the one who provoked the attack and lost it. Besides, Lu Xun had little experience other than administration, so the cream of the war talents would be Lü Meng only. And look at any KOEI game, Guan Yu is always better than Lü Meng and Lu Xun.


Well, I guess the fault is with both parties. Before Guan Yu's attack at Wu's silo, Sun Quan already agreed to Lu Meng's advice (that taking Jing Zhou would be more advantageous to Wu). Hence, when Sun Quan found out that Guan Yu had taken a Wu's silo, he gladly used that as an excuse and ordered Lu Meng to attack Jing Zhou. This is similar to the Japanese using Lu Gou Bridge incident to invade northern China (the Jap had intended to invade China for her resources all along).

I don't think Lu Meng was the only cream of the war talents in Wu. Otherwise, wouldn't Wu be weaker than Shu during that period? Refer to the thread on the strength of Wu and Shu.

Finally, IMO, KOEI game is not an issue of debate here. hehehe.. :D


Zhou Gongjin wrote:He could have done more if he hadn't been so foolish as to underestimate Wu and its potential. It was mostly Guan Yu's reputation that kept Wei initially out of JIngzhou, and it was the fact that Sun Quan was a relative of Liu Bei that he did not invade JIngzhou without a reason, not because of Guan Yu.


That's funny. How can a man who did nothing have such high reputation among his enemies? Either way, it showed that with Guan Yu at Jing Zhou, both Wei and Wu were forced to think twice before attacking him. Sun Quan was an opportunist like Liu Bei and Cao Cao and under the guidance of some of the war-hawks of Wu, I doubt he would stick to the alliance if Jing Zhou was an easy target. Finally, defending the delicate place of Jing Zhou for 3 years is no easy feat. 3 years is not a short time, esp. during the warring periods, and Jing Zhou is not like Yi Zhou or Yang Zhou. It was exposed to attack from multiple fronts.
User avatar
Mega Zarak
Grand Tutor of Wei
 
Posts: 1106
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2002 2:38 am
Location: North of the River

Next

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 4 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved