Cao Cao’s greatest foil (SGYY)

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Who was Cao Cao's biggest foil?

Liu Bei
28
44%
Zhou Yu
12
19%
Zuo Ci
6
10%
Zhang Xiu
1
2%
Cao Cao
11
17%
Zhuge Liang
5
8%
 
Total votes : 63

Cao Cao’s greatest foil (SGYY)

Unread postby Iznoach, Legendary Dragon » Fri Feb 21, 2003 8:56 am

Or, in lay terms, the person most responsible for Mengde's failures and problems. Let's evaluate certain candidates...

*Zhou Yu: Stopped his advance at Chi-bi, kept him from entering the south-river lands.

*Liu Bei: Took Hanzhong from Cao Cao, kept him from entering west-river lands.

*Zuo Ci: Harrassed Cao Cao after Sun Quan's submission, possibly gave Cao Cao a brain tumor. :lol:

*Zhang Xiu: Attacked Mengde at Wan, killed his eldest son Ang and Captain of the Tiger guard Dian Wei.

*Zhuge Liang: Burned Xiahou Dun; got Sun Quan to resist Cao Cao at Chibi; finally gave Cao's archnemesis Liu Bei a decent advisor. :lol:

*Himself: After taking Hanzhong from Zhang Lu, disregarded advice to attack Yizhou. Had he taken this advice, he probably would have taken the area, and subsequently united China. Probably his biggest mistake...

Edit: added Zhuge Liang, due to popular request.
Last edited by Iznoach, Legendary Dragon on Sat Feb 22, 2003 5:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Cao Zhi » Fri Feb 21, 2003 9:55 am

I chose Zhou Yu. This is coming straight from the novel, as my knowledge of the actual events is limited.

Had Zhou Yu/Huang Gai's plan at Chibi been thwarted and Cao Cao's fleet emerged triumphant in the end, what would have kept Cao Cao from adding the Southland to his domain? Or could the Wei army have continued the invasion into South, considering the terrain and logistics problems? I suppose it would have depended on how badly Wu was beaten at Chibi and how many losses Cao Cao had from his precious few sailors. Had the Southland fleet retreated in good order, they might have made a final stand somewhere else. If they were utterly crushed, then the first question remains; could Cao Cao have indeed taken the Southland?

In any event, had Cao Cao added the Southland to his realm, what power in China could have stopped him?
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Unread postby Iznoach, Legendary Dragon » Fri Feb 21, 2003 12:03 pm

Sorry Great Deer, somehow I managed to delete your response. :oops: I couldn't save it, and I still can't figure out how it happened. Anyway, in response to your question regarding Zhuge Liang, I originally had meant to make the thread based on SGZ, but changed my mind.

Anyway, to answer my own question, I believe Cao Cao's greatest foil in the novel is himself. He totally blew it at Chibi by rushing into things, with sick and inexperienced troops. Up to that point he had displayed nothing but shrewd, calculating brilliance; which makes me wonder if he became senile around this point? Also, he should have (like GD also pointed out) followed Sima Yi's advice, and advanced into Yizhou. I believe faced with the prospect of Cao Cao's massive army, Liu Zhang probably would have submitted readily enough :twisted:
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Fri Feb 21, 2003 12:34 pm

Iznoach, Legendary Dragon wrote:Sorry Great Deer, somehow I managed to delete your response. :oops: I couldn't save it, and I still can't figure out how it happened. Anyway, in response to your question regarding Zhuge Liang, I originally had meant to make the thread based on SGZ, but changed my mind.


No prob about that! :D Anyway, beside the point about Zhuge Liang, I think I mentioned something like it was Jia Xu and not Zhang Xiu who gave Cao Cao a good headache.

In addition, I chose Liu Bei from your list. Reason is because of how Liu Bei's persistency and his "good character" (not to mention his precious surname of cos!) played a crucial part in rallying those supporters of Han under his banner. These people proved to be one of Cao Cao's most long-lasting opponents in time to come. :D
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Unread postby Lance » Fri Feb 21, 2003 2:34 pm

I doubt Cao Cao went senile...I mean, he handled the Ma Chao and Han Sui well enough, giving false impressions that his defenses were weak, his troops were starving, etc. to help drive them apart(Ma Chao fell for it, Han Sui suspected something), and this a few years AFTER Chi-Bi. He does, however, get increasingly arrogant and paranoid later in his life and I believe this causes many of his mistakes...and this was how he stopped himself, by getting arrogant and paranoid...
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Unread postby Tianshan Zi » Fri Feb 21, 2003 3:02 pm

I chose Liu Bei, because while Liu Bei lived, people could always contrast Cao Cao with Liu Bei and point out his faults.
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Unread postby Emperor Rick » Fri Feb 21, 2003 10:05 pm

Lets see umm...

Liu Bei=50 (4 votes) ( 2 votes) 25 =Cao Cao

Zhou Yu=25 (2 votes

Zou Ci=0 (no votes)

Zhang Xiu=0 (no votes)

Looks Like Cao Cao Biggest Foil was.......Liu Bei!!.......
I knew You folks would pick liu bei
anyways Liu bei has 4 votes.
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Unread postby Elemental » Sat Feb 22, 2003 1:50 am

I would say Zhou Yu. The battle of Chi Bi was one of Cao Cao's greatest losses. Cao Cao was tricked over and over again. Poor Mengde.
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Unread postby TheGreatNads » Sat Feb 22, 2003 3:37 am

Based on the novel, definately Liu Bei.
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Unread postby Iznoach, Legendary Dragon » Sat Feb 22, 2003 5:49 am

Cao Zhi wrote:I chose Zhou Yu...

... Had the Southland fleet retreated in good order, they might have made a final stand somewhere else. If they were utterly crushed, then the first question remains; could Cao Cao have indeed taken the Southland?

In any event, had Cao Cao added the Southland to his realm, what power in China could have stopped him?


In response to your first question, yes I think Cao Cao would have taken the southland with a decisive and crushing victory at Chibi. My reasoning is this: Sun Quan already had the bulk of his forces massed at Chibi, so if they lost there would be precious few left to withstand Cao Cao.

For your second question, my answer is nobody. I contend that if Cao Cao had won against Sun Quan and added the southland to his holdings, Liu Zhang would have hastily surrendered, and Liu Bei would then be easily crushed.

Great Deer wrote:...I think I mentioned something like it was Jia Xu and not Zhang Xiu who gave Cao Cao a good headache.


Yes it was, however without the motivation of Zhang Xiu (his aunt becoming Cao's lover :twisted: ), Jia Xu wouldn't have had the opportunity to give Mengde the 'headaches' in the first place. :wink:
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