Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistance

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Re: Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistan

Unread postby capnnerefir » Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:51 am

I'm having trouble tracking down a passage of the ZZTJ discussing Guanqiu Jian's daughter.

In Fang's translation, he writes:

Guanqiu Jian's granddaughter, married into the Liu clan, was to be put to death. Being pregnant, she was imprisoned at the tingyu's. Her mother Xun had been pardoned from death through a memorial of the wuwei jiangjun Xun Yi. Having escaped death, she petitioned the tingyu that she be made a public slave in ransom for her daughter's life. The sili zhubu Cheng Xian (程咸) maintained...

The thing is, I've looked at two different versions of the original text (here and here). Both go directly from the part about the granddaughter to Cheng Xian's memorial. I have no idea where Fang is getting the middle part (the part about Guanqiu Jian's daughter and Xun Yi) from. Both just say:

俭孙女适刘氏,当死,以孕系廷尉。司隶主簿程咸议曰...

I simply cannot find that middle part in the original text at all and I can't for the life of me figure out where Fang is getting it from. It's not even from his notes, it's in the direct translation portion, which makes it doubly confusing.

In his notes, Fang says that portion comes from the Jin Ji written by Gan Bao, but I can't figure out where I can find the original passage. It doesn't seem to be in any of the material appended to Guanqiu Jian's biography, and I can't find it attached to the biographies of any other people I've thought to look at (Cao Mao, Wang Ji, Sima Shi, Sima Zhao, Jia Chong, Xun Yi, etc.) I just can't figure out where Fang is getting that line at all.

Mostly I'm just trying to figure out if the woman in question was named Guanqiu Xun or if she was from the Xun family or married into it (which would explain why Xun Yi had her pardoned). But I just can't find this passage at all.
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Re: Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistan

Unread postby TigerTally » Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:19 pm

A more complete version of Cheng Xian's writing came from Pei's commentary to SGZ 12 quoting 晉紀 :

大魏承秦、漢之弊,未及革制。所以追戮已出之女,誠欲殄醜類之族也。若已產育,則成他家之母。於防則不足懲姧亂之源,於情則傷孝子之思,男不御罪於他族,而女獨嬰戮於二門,非所以哀矜女弱,均法制之大分也。臣以為在室之女,可從父母之刑,旣醮之婦,使從夫家之戮。

Also before that there were several lines meaning the same as "Her mother Xun had been pardoned from death through a memorial of the wuwei jiangjun Xun Yi (女母荀,為武衞將軍荀顗所表活)" in Pei's commentary.
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Re: Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistan

Unread postby capnnerefir » Mon Apr 13, 2015 4:01 pm

Thanks. It never occurred to me to look in 12; I didn't think anyone in that volume was relevant to the topic. I appreciate it.

From the context of the line (and the characters involved) do you think the meaning is that Guanqiu Jian's daughter had the personal name of 荀, or that 荀 was her original family? I'm assuming the latter, but opinions are encouraged.
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Re: Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistan

Unread postby TigerTally » Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:32 pm

Guanqiu Jian's daughter should have the family name of Guanqiu. It looks like that would be Guanqiu Jian's daughter-in-law from the Xun clan.
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Re: Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistan

Unread postby capnnerefir » Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:34 am

That's about what I figured. Thank you.
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Re: Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistan

Unread postby wu he » Sat Oct 03, 2015 4:13 am

This is what I encountered when reading Bao Xun biography:
五帝三王,靡不明本立教,以孝治天下

What does "靡不明" mean?
Thanks in advance.
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Re: Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistan

Unread postby TigerTally » Sat Oct 03, 2015 12:07 pm

wu he wrote:This is what I encountered when reading Bao Xun biography:
五帝三王,靡不明本立教,以孝治天下

What does "靡不明" mean?
Thanks in advance.


Here mi 靡 means "no(ne)".

The translation would be like this:

Five Emperors 五帝
Three Sovereigns 三王
no(ne) 靡
(did) not 不
manifest / clarify 明
basic / foundation 本
establish 立
education 教
with 以
filial piety 孝
govern 治
all-under-heaven / world 天下

... [for] the Five Emperors and the Three Sovereigns, none [of them] did not clarify the basic and establish the education, to govern the world with filial piety ...
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Re: Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistan

Unread postby Bassaga » Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:56 am

Here's a quick question: as far as Zhuge Liang's "Sleeping Dragon," I've seen the characters ( 卧龙 I think?) romanized as Wulong and as Wolong, sometimes with various spaces and apostrophes. When I looked up the characters one at a time, it seemed like there was more Wu than Wo, but when I look them up together, Wolong seems more common.

Is this just a matter of how a person wants to spell it, or is it a Wade-Giles vs Pinyin sort of thing?
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Re: Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistan

Unread postby Fornadan » Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:29 am

ctext only gives the reading wò for 臥

http://ctext.org/dictionary.pl?if=en&char=%E8%87%A5
Translations from the Book of Jin: http://bookofjin.tumblr.com/index
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Re: Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistan

Unread postby TigerTally » Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:08 am

The romanizations of wu or wo in both Wade-Giles and Pinyin systems remain the same.

Characters in a phrase like 臥龍 is often put together without a space when romanized. Therefore it is invalid to look up wu long or "wu long" on search engines. Most results you would get should be about Oolong tea. And if you type in 臥龍 as well, the only page you can find on Google with 臥龍 romanized as wulong is this one.

You may try searching in this Chinese online dictionary next time. If you type in wo long there, it will report 臥龍. For wu long, it gives 烏龍 and 污隆.
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