Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistance

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Re: Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistan

Unread postby Shao Shanshu » Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:57 pm

Is there a way to put the notion of usurper or tyrant in one ideogram?

Describing Dong Zhuo, will it be correct to say 霸董卓?
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Re: Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistan

Unread postby Lady Wu » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:44 pm

Shao Shanshu wrote:Is there a way to put the notion of usurper or tyrant in one ideogram?

Describing Dong Zhuo, will it be correct to say 霸董卓?

No, that doesn't work. Especially since modern Mandarin Chinese has an aversion to single-syllable words.

There also isn't a good word that means "usurper" (you can say 篡位者, literally, "the one who usurps", but it sounds clunky and made up). The word for "tyrant" is 暴君 (literally "tyrannical ruler"), but it wouldn't really apply to Dong Zhuo since he wasn't technically the ruler (he never took the throne himself). You could maybe say 惡霸董卓, where 惡霸 means something like "evil bully"--however, I personally associate that term with a local bully (like, the guy who terrorizes your town/village) rather than someone who abuses political and military power.

What are you using this for?
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Re: Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistan

Unread postby Jia Nanfeng » Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:38 am

I need some assistance finding a translation.

The Henan history museum in Zhengzhou has Xu Yi's epitaph on display. Information about it can be read on the official page here.

I've been trying for a while to find a direct translation of the epitaph, but thus far I have only been able to find summaries of it. Does anybody know where I could find a translation, either in book or on the web?

Thanks! :pika:
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Re: Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistan

Unread postby Han » Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:52 pm

I need serious help. Liu Bei Chinese Wikipedia seems to have a discussion on Liu Bei temple name. But I can only figure out the basic details: Its either LieZu or TaiZong.

Here is what the Chinese Wikipedia state:

《三国志·先主传》中并没有记载刘备庙号。李慈铭怀疑刘备庙号烈祖是由刘渊所追尊[11]。章学诚根据《三国志·先主传》中诸葛亮宣读的遗诏,指出刘备庙号是太宗[12]。卢弼认为章学诚的说法不足据,如果刘备庙号太宗,《三国志》本传没有不记载的道理。[13]郭善兵则认为刘备庙号缺失不能归咎于史书记载疏漏,而是受到郑玄礼学“一祖二宗与四亲庙”七庙学说影响所致。[14]
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Re: Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistan

Unread postby TigerTally » Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:40 pm

Han wrote:I need serious help. Liu Bei Chinese Wikipedia seems to have a discussion on Liu Bei temple name. But I can only figure out the basic details: Its either LieZu or TaiZong.

Here is what the Chinese Wikipedia state:

《三国志·先主传》中并没有记载刘备庙号。李慈铭怀疑刘备庙号烈祖是由刘渊所追尊[11]。章学诚根据《三国志·先主传》中诸葛亮宣读的遗诏,指出刘备庙号是太宗[12]。卢弼认为章学诚的说法不足据,如果刘备庙号太宗,《三国志》本传没有不记载的道理。[13]郭善兵则认为刘备庙号缺失不能归咎于史书记载疏漏,而是受到郑玄礼学“一祖二宗与四亲庙”七庙学说影响所致。[14]


Liu Bei's biography in SGZ does not record his temple name.

Li Ciming (1830-1894) suspects that a temple name Liezu was created by Liu Yuan (251-310) long after his death.

Zhang Xuecheng (1738-1801), based on his testamentary edict announced by Zhuge Liang, speculates that his temple name was Taizong.

Lu Bi (1876-1907) does not agree with Zhang Xuecheng, because Taizong as his temple name is never recorded in SGZ.

Guo Shanbing (1973-) believes that the absence of record in SGZ was the result of an influential ritual idea by Zheng Xuan, known as “temples for one forefather, two ancestors, four relatives”.
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Re: Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistan

Unread postby Han » Tue Jan 16, 2018 6:15 am

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!!! :D

Guo Shanbing (1973-) believes that the absence of record in SGZ was the result of an influential ritual idea by Zheng Xuan, known as “temples for one forefather, two ancestors, four relatives”.


Could you elaborate on this part? Or is there any source to read up on it?
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Re: Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistan

Unread postby TigerTally » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:05 am

The Chinese Wikipedia does not elaborate on this point. I do have Guo Shanbin's book, but it is buried somewhere in my bookshelves so it would take some time before I dig it out. Another relevant article by Guo can be found at here but it does not clearly explain the topic either.

If I understand correctly, the (incomplete) story should be like this:

1) Ancient Chinese set up a rule of having only seven ancestral temples for an emperor;

2) Some Confucian scholars took that these seven ancestors should include one zu 祖( "forefather" or progenitor) often titled Gaozu 高祖, two zong 宗 ("ancestor" or dynasty founders/receivers of Heaven's mandate) usually called Taizu 太祖 (?) Shizu 世祖 (?) , Shizong 世宗 or Taizong 太宗 , while the remaining four qin 親 ("relatives") should be the previous four predecessor to the current emperor[/b];

3) The Eastern Han reign failed to follow the above traditions, resulting in 11 or 12 ancestral temples, therefore some officials and scholars, such as Cai Yong, urged the emperor to remove some of the absurd ones (which may also "cancel" their respective temple names);

4) Since Liu Bei considered himself following those traditions in the Han imperial clan, so he could not be named Gaozu, Taizu or other name that is already occupied, but at the meantime it is certain that Liu Bei had his own temple name because Liu Shan set up a temple for him (where Liu Chen committed suicide).
Last edited by TigerTally on Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:31 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistan

Unread postby Fornadan » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:51 am

TigerTally wrote:2) Some Confucian scholars took that these seven ancestors should include one zu 祖( "forefather" or progenitor) often titled Gaozu 高祖, two zong 宗 ("ancestor" or dynasty founders/receivers of Heaven's mandate) usually called Taizu 太祖 and Taizong 太宗 , while the remaining four qin 親 ("relatives") should be the previous four predecessor to the current emperor[/b];

Hmm, Gaozu was not used as an official temple name until after the Three Kingdoms I think. Liu Bang's was officially Taizu (as was Cao Cao and Sun Quan's). Guangwu's temple name was Shizu.
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Re: Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistan

Unread postby TigerTally » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:35 pm

Fornadan wrote:
TigerTally wrote:2) Some Confucian scholars took that these seven ancestors should include one zu 祖( "forefather" or progenitor) often titled Gaozu 高祖, two zong 宗 ("ancestor" or dynasty founders/receivers of Heaven's mandate) usually called Taizu 太祖 and Taizong 太宗 , while the remaining four qin 親 ("relatives") should be the previous four predecessor to the current emperor[/b];

Hmm, Gaozu was not used as an official temple name until after the Three Kingdoms I think. Liu Bang's was officially Taizu (as was Cao Cao and Sun Quan's). Guangwu's temple name was Shizu.


The gaozu here is used in a more general sense, rather than referring to Liu Bang in particular. Scholars would use this term to talk about rulers and temples of older dynasties like Shang and Zhou.

And yes, Gaozu is not Liu Bang's temple name back at the Western Han, but he was still often referred to by this name during the discussion on ritual in Eastern Han. The reason why Gaozu as a temple name became more popular after 3k period is also due to the spreading of the above ritual theory.

Nonetheless, the debate seems to be more about which ancestor should have his own temple for offering, rather than how he is named for in the temple. I must confess I cannot draw a good connection between these two issues. I am still searching for Guo's book, and hopefully it would give an answer to this.
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Re: Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistan

Unread postby Han » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:12 pm

Thank you very much. I truly appreciate your help.
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