Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistance

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Re: Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistan

Unread postby plunged » Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:03 am

Fornadan wrote:
plunged wrote:Can somebody please translate this?

漢帝賞春

what is the context?


Well, there is no real context... it's the text at the top right of this image:

Image


EDIT: never mind, I think I'll go with The Emperor of Han enjoys the view of the Spring
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Re: Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistan

Unread postby plunged » Sat Dec 17, 2016 1:07 pm

There is a passage in He Jin's HHS biography that I'd like to have translated. Can anyone assist? It's this passage:

大將軍司馬許涼、假司馬伍宕說進曰:「太公六韜有天子將兵事,可以威厭四方。」進以為然,入言之於帝。

I can't get further then this and I doubt it's correct:

General-in-Chief Sima Xuliang (or "the General-in-Chief's Major Xu Liang"?) and Major Wu Dang said to [He] Jin: "[according to] Taigong's Six Secret Teachings the emperor should take control of the army and everything will be fine. [He] Jin was pleased with this advice and told the emperor.

I'm not sure about the names of these people, because neither are in Rafe's tome.
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Re: Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistan

Unread postby Fornadan » Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:42 am

I think it should be Xu Liang and Wu Dang.

It was He Jin who was General-in-Chief. The "Major to General-in-Chief" Xu Liang would then be his senior military advisor.

假 I believe refer to a temporary appointment, the "Acting Major" Wu Dang should then be another military member of He Jin's staff.
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Re: Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistan

Unread postby plunged » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:52 am

Awesome. Thanks very much. Never heard of these guys before. I like finding new names.

But, you agree with the rest of the translation?
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Re: Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistan

Unread postby plunged » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:49 pm

三年,為譙王。五年,改封譙縣。

"In the third year [of Huangchu], he was made King of Qiao. In the fifth year ... Qiao county"

Can someone help me with this? Im having some difficulties with finding the right English words for 改封. I guess it means something like "change of an administrative unit".
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Re: Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistan

Unread postby Lady Wu » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:30 pm

plunged wrote:三年,為譙王。五年,改封譙縣。

"In the third year [of Huangchu], he was made King of Qiao. In the fifth year ... Qiao county"

Can someone help me with this? Im having some difficulties with finding the right English words for 改封. I guess it means something like "change of an administrative unit".

This might be more complicated than it looks.

譙縣 (Qiao County) had been an administrative district through the Han, and had originally belonged to 沛 Pei. Han had this weird thing where some of the mid-sized districts below the level of province were called commanderies (郡), but when they were assigned as a prince's fief they were known as states (國). Pei was originally a state but by the late Han it was no longer a fief, so it went back to being Pei Commandery. Anyway, some time either during the Jian'an years or when Cao Pi ascended the throne, a new commandery, Qiao, was created, and Qiao County was the seat of administration.

So when Cao Lin was first made Prince of Qiao, he presumably had the whole commandery as his fief, with a bunch of counties under it (I've seen 15 and 5; cf. http://www.e3ol.com/library/html/2008-1 ... 1932.shtml). However, it seems like Cao Pi decided to reduce basically everyone's fiefs to just counties/cities at some point. So, poor Cao Lin went from being the Prince of Qiao (State/Commandery) to Prince of Qiao County. This is what this line is about.

And no I don't know the English for this either. Probably "stingy-assholery".
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Re: Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistan

Unread postby DragonAtma » Sat Jul 15, 2017 4:31 am

Aha! Does that also explain why some (commanderies) had an administrator and others (states) had a chancellor?

And I presume the occasional prince (such as Liu Chong) would actually run his state instead of being a figurehead who had a chancellor handling everything.
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Re: Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistan

Unread postby Fornadan » Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:23 am

plunged wrote:三年,為譙王。五年,改封譙縣。

"In the third year [of Huangchu], he was made King of Qiao. In the fifth year ... Qiao county"

Can someone help me with this? Im having some difficulties with finding the right English words for 改封. I guess it means something like "change of an administrative unit".


"In the 3rd Year, he became King of Qiao. In the 5th Year, [the Emperor, the court] changed the fief to Qiao county"

改封 is a standard phrase for changing someone's notional fief territory
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Re: Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistan

Unread postby Fornadan » Sat Jul 15, 2017 6:40 am

DragonAtma wrote:Aha! Does that also explain why some (commanderies) had an administrator and others (states) had a chancellor?

And I presume the occasional prince (such as Liu Chong) would actually run his state instead of being a figurehead who had a chancellor handling everything.

The Liu kings/princes lost all their political power in the mid-Western Han, but the Han court maintained the fiction that these were vassal states and not just ordinary administrative units. So mimicing the imperial government, the head of the state administration was called a chancellor, and there were a number of other officials not found in regular commanderies, but all of these were appointed by the central court, and the king was really just a rentier with no influence over the administration of his notional land.

Liu Chong it seems owed his unique position from the troops he raiesd in response to the troubles of the times. Arguably he was acting just like a member of the gentry class, like Cao Cao, just one with a more posh pedigree
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Re: Quick translation, hanzi, and minor information assistan

Unread postby plunged » Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:25 am

Lady Wu wrote:This might be more complicated than it looks.

譙縣 (Qiao County) had been an administrative district through the Han, and had originally belonged to 沛 Pei. Han had this weird thing where some of the mid-sized districts below the level of province were called commanderies (郡), but when they were assigned as a prince's fief they were known as states (國). Pei was originally a state but by the late Han it was no longer a fief, so it went back to being Pei Commandery. Anyway, some time either during the Jian'an years or when Cao Pi ascended the throne, a new commandery, Qiao, was created, and Qiao County was the seat of administration.

So when Cao Lin was first made Prince of Qiao, he presumably had the whole commandery as his fief, with a bunch of counties under it (I've seen 15 and 5; cf. http://www.e3ol.com/library/html/2008-1 ... 1932.shtml). However, it seems like Cao Pi decided to reduce basically everyone's fiefs to just counties/cities at some point. So, poor Cao Lin went from being the Prince of Qiao (State/Commandery) to Prince of Qiao County. This is what this line is about.

And no I don't know the English for this either. Probably "stingy-assholery".


Thanks, now it all makes sense :-) I think I'd rather go with "changed his fief" rather than stingy assholery though :wink:

Fornadan wrote:"In the 3rd Year, he became King of Qiao. In the 5th Year, [the Emperor, the court] changed the fief to Qiao county"

改封 is a standard phrase for changing someone's notional fief territory


Thanks! I had actually already written it down like that, but wasn't sure about it because it just looked odd with the two mentions of Qiao. But now it all makes sense.
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