Zhuge Liang, etc, the greatest strategist ever?

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Zhuge Liang, etc, the greatest strategist ever?

Unread postby Guan Yu the black dragon » Wed Feb 12, 2003 2:35 am

I have heard people say that Zhuge Liang is the all time best strategist in rotk do you believe that or disagree? If you do disagree then if you would be so kind please put your favorite strategist down.

Mod Edit: changed title, to more appropriate
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Unread postby Kong Renkuai » Wed Feb 12, 2003 2:51 am

I strongly disagree. He didn't prove at all he was the best.

His campaign against the Mang can't be considered a great accomplishment and his northern campaigns where failures. He was short on supplies in his campaigns and he never corrected the error that was a major factor in his loses. No doubt, he is a political genius, but he is far from a great military strategist.

I'd say my favorite is Zhou Yu or Lu Xun. Lu Xun was basically like Zhuge Liang in beating barbarians and losing his northern campaigns, but he did defend a few times against Wei plus other accomplishments so IMO that alone gets him up there above Kongming.
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Unread postby Jeffro » Wed Feb 12, 2003 3:07 am

Isn't there already a topic about this? Anyways, I'd have to say yes and no. He was a wonderful advisor, but as strategist he had to have some help to become great.
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Unread postby TheGreatNads » Wed Feb 12, 2003 3:08 am

No, his accomplishments aren't even worth talking about. Jia Xu is my favorite strategist.
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Unread postby DarkAnthem » Wed Feb 12, 2003 4:16 am

Kong Renkuai wrote:His campaign against the Mang can't be considered a great accomplishment and his northern campaigns where failures. He was short on supplies in his campaigns and he never corrected the error that was a major factor in his loses. No doubt, he is a political genius, but he is far from a great military strategist.


His supply problems were only major factors in his losses in the second and third campaign. It was still a problem in the 4th but wasn't major enough to cause him to retreat; he retreated mainly because of Li Yan's letter. In the fifth, there's not much mention of his supply problems, and he died in that one.

Due to Shu terrains and the only route of transporting supplies was through Han Zhong, fighting a long drawn out war would be bound to lead to some supply problems. And it wasn't such a major problem after the third campaign.

I don't think Zhuge Liang was the best strategist, but I believe that he was a decent strategist and commander. As CIC he didn't do such a great job in managing every aspect of the campaign; his main problem was the lack of alternative plans for long drawn out wars and being overly cautious. If he was on Wei side, where his cuatiousness work well for him instead of the other way around, and with terrains easier for transport of extra supplies to last longer in the battlefields, he would likely to be very successful as a commander.
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Unread postby Gregcricket2002 » Wed Feb 12, 2003 3:56 pm

TheGreatNads wrote:No, his accomplishments aren't even worth talking about. Jia Xu is my favorite strategist.


OK i can live with you believing Jia Xu is your favourite strategist, but you have got to admit, that Zhuge Liang did some wonderful stuff, like Jia Xu :)
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Unread postby Lance » Wed Feb 12, 2003 7:46 pm

No. ZGL was certainly NOT the greatest strategist. His strongest points are his abilities in civil administration. Though his campaign against the Nanman was succesful without any great cost, pacifying a bunch of disorganized barbarians isn't a great accomplishment. His Northern Campaigns weren't bad, he generally improved the supply dilemma each time and was able to do all the campaigns without any major losses....which could've been disatrous for the much smaller Shu army. Who was the best in my opinion? For a CIC, definately Lu Xun and for a strategist, I'd have to say Jia Xu...it was his plans that kept Zhang Xiu alive for so long, not that he doesn't deserve credit for recognizing Jia Xu's genius and effectively executing his plans....
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Wed Feb 12, 2003 8:15 pm

Well me...... *Points to username*Yeah I think he is great i mean his plots was good. He was a smart person in the games he was very smart in everything but not power. I think he is a great person it is a shame he died. I like Pang Tong,Lu Xun and Zhou Yu too. Zhou Yu why Zhou Yu because he is smart but it was just because his plans backfired.
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Unread postby Gregcricket2002 » Wed Feb 12, 2003 8:50 pm

Lance wrote:No. ZGL was certainly NOT the greatest strategist. His strongest points are his abilities in civil administration. Though his campaign against the Nanman was succesful without any great cost, pacifying a bunch of disorganized barbarians isn't a great accomplishment. His Northern Campaigns weren't bad, he generally improved the supply dilemma each time and was able to do all the campaigns without any major losses....which could've been disatrous for the much smaller Shu army. Who was the best in my opinion? For a CIC, definately Lu Xun and for a strategist, I'd have to say Jia Xu...it was his plans that kept Zhang Xiu alive for so long, not that he doesn't deserve credit for recognizing Jia Xu's genius and effectively executing his plans....


I didn't say that Zhuge Liang was the greatest strategist, i simply said he had done great things... He is probably on par with Jia Xu :)
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Unread postby Supreme Kai » Wed Feb 12, 2003 8:57 pm

I would like to say that there was someone better than Zhuge Liang but I cannot think of any. Zhuge Liang's plans were brilliant. Basically everything that happened to Shu was planned out by Zhuge Ling, with the exception of that loser Guan Yu and Jing. Sure all of his planning may not have seen like military stategy but it was. Everything but the fields, diplomacy and economy of the kingdom was in the militaries hands. Zhuge Liang vision was unequaled by anyone else. And that is why he is the best. Zhou Yu is probably second, he showed great ability, but Zhuge Liang came up with ecentially the same ideas. Jia Xu was pobably third. Zhuge Liang may have been cautious on the bttle field but not in his planning. Those who are cautious are the ones that do not attack(Sima Yi, Lu Xun) and there fore they cannot be as high as Zhuge Liang.
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