Pang Tong's 4th Plan??

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Pang Tong's 4th Plan??

Unread postby Mega Zarak » Tue Feb 11, 2003 6:46 am

In history, according to Pang Tong's SGZ biography, Pang Tong offered Liu Bei 3 plans when they were in Yi Zhou, just before Liu Bei was about to go north to attack Han Zhong for Liu Zhang. The 3 plans were namely:

i) Pretend to go north but in reality, go for the shortcuts during the night and proceed directly to attack Cheng Du. Liu Zhang would be caught unprepared.

ii) Employed some tactics to entice Yang Huai and Gao Pei to their camp. Killed them and took over their troops. Following which, proceed to Cheng Du.

iii) Retreat back to Jing Zhou via Bai Di.

In history, given these plans, Liu Bei chose (ii). Do you think that Liu Bei made the best choice? Is this set of plans the best possible set? Could there be a 4th plan (or even 5th?)?? :D
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Unread postby Wen Yang » Tue Feb 11, 2003 2:01 pm

I think he made the right choice, afterall he was able to conquer Shu.

I think lots of plans could have worked as long as 2 key factors were kept. And I think the 2 key factors for Liu Bei's success were 1.) gaining Yizhou becouse it provided good strategical positioning against Chengdu 2.) acquiring Fa Zheng, for obvious reasons. IMO, as long as these 2 factors were met then any reasonable plan could have worked.
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Unread postby Han Xin » Tue Feb 11, 2003 2:22 pm

IMO, plan two had many advantages.

Firstly, the removal of Yang Huai and Gao Pei would mean that Liu Zhang would no longer had any serious support or re-inforcement.

Secondly, with all the fake righteousness that Liu Bei showed when he was at Shu, he could made many of Liu Zhang's to follow him.

Thirdly, trying to backstabbed Liu Zhang by going straight to Cheng Du had many risks, if they did not take over Cheng Du quickly, they be stuck in a virtual no-man land with Yang Huai and Gao Pei at their back and re-enforcement so far away. No doubt that Liu Zhang is already wary of Liu Bei since Zhang Song was exposed.

Forthly, returning to JingZhou and launch a full frontal attack although it an act of a gentlemen but its mean Liu Bei given up all his advantages.
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Tue Feb 11, 2003 8:42 pm

i will pick 1 or 2 because i think those are the best plans.
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Unread postby Mengdez New Book » Wed Feb 12, 2003 2:57 pm

The best (first) plan that Pang Tong suggested to Liu Bei should be defined as worst (third) plan. At that plan, Pang Tong suggested Liu Bei attack Cheng Dou right away with lightning speed. According to him, if Liu Bei attacked like a wind, Liu Zhang will probably did not prepare very well, this will led to the victory. The truth is, when Liu Bei chose the second plan, he moved his troops from Jia Meng Guan (葭萌關) and victory along the way until he reached Luo Cheng (雒城). There, he lost Pang Tong and used almost a year to break it down. So, if he has chosen the first plan, what will happen? Yang Huai and Gao Pei (Liu Zhang's officers who has been ordered to follow Liu Bei as 'guard') will attacked him from behind, he will faced two side wars. Plus, the people of Yi Zhou didn't really welcome Liu Bei at that time, if they did, Liu Bei should not need one year time to conquer Luo Cheng.

To be truth, i am doubt that Pang Tong good at military strategy. When Liu Bei first entered Yi Zhou and met Liu Zhang at Fu Cheng (涪城), Pang Tong advise Liu Bei to capture Liu Zhang. With this, he said Liu Bei can take the whole Yi Zhou without causing much losses. IMO, it was a risky strategy. When Liu Zhang met Liu Bei, he brought along 30,000 troops, they were loyal to Liu Zhang, there should be a fought if this really happen. Then, Pang Tong never considered the reaction of the people at Yi Zhou. Although Liu Zhang not a great lord, still he governed Yi Zhou for quite long, how will the people betrayed him in split second? If Liu Bei did take this action, he will be facing hard time at Yi Zhou. Luckily, he was wise enough to reject Pang Tong's offer. :)
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Unread postby Supreme Kai » Wed Feb 12, 2003 4:46 pm

Probably the second plan was the best, but what I don't get is why Pang Tong gave Liu Bei three options. If Pang Tong was smart as claimed, he would have told Liu bei which plan to take, not give him options. I don't recall Zhuge Liang ever giving Liu Bei options, he just told him the best solution and if Liu Bei didn't like it or if he disagreed with the methods Zhuge Liang would come up with another plan.
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Wed Feb 12, 2003 8:31 pm

Supreme Kai wrote:Probably the second plan was the best, but what I don't get is why Pang Tong gave Liu Bei three options. If Pang Tong was smart as claimed, he would have told Liu bei which plan to take, not give him options. I don't recall Zhuge Liang ever giving Liu Bei options, he just told him the best solution and if Liu Bei didn't like it or if he disagreed with the methods Zhuge Liang would come up with another plan.
Pant TOng died because he think Zhugeliang did not like him. he also died because of that unluckly horse. number 1 was riskly too because they are always so much horns to make sound. but it will buy some time.
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Unread postby Wen Yang » Wed Feb 12, 2003 8:38 pm

Zhugeliang wrote:Pant TOng died because he think Zhugeliang did not like him. he also died because of that unluckly horse. number 1 was riskly too because they are always so much horns to make sound. but it will buy some time.


Well going by the novel you're correct. Historically though, he was in action while beseiging a city and was struck by a stray arrow. I like the way LGZ made Pang Tong's death scene, it was just cool to me for some reason.
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Unread postby Chen Kun » Fri Feb 14, 2003 6:03 pm

Supreme Kai wrote:Probably the second plan was the best, but what I don't get is why Pang Tong gave Liu Bei three options. If Pang Tong was smart as claimed, he would have told Liu bei which plan to take, not give him options. I don't recall Zhuge Liang ever giving Liu Bei options, he just told him the best solution and if Liu Bei didn't like it or if he disagreed with the methods Zhuge Liang would come up with another plan.

I think that is not an important question. As a smart ruler, Liu Bei should know which one is the best option. If not,then it was not worthy for Pang Tong to serve him.
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Unread postby Supreme Kai » Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:42 pm

Chen Kun wrote:I think that is not an important question. As a smart ruler, Liu Bei should know which one is the best option. If not,then it was not worthy for Pang Tong to serve him.


Well I think it is a very important question. As the advisor or stratagist it is up to him to form a solid plan of action that will succeed. Giving Liu Bei three options only shows to me that Pang Tong thought all three may work but he was not very certain which one was the best. Which says to me that Pang Tong is not as good as advertised.

As for Liu Bei being a smart ruler. Well if Pang Tong can't decide, how is it that Liu Bei can, when the advisor is expected to be the smartest. If Liu Bei made the wrong decision then whose fault would it be. Liu Bei for choosing the wrong option or Pang Tong for sugessting it in the first place?

If not,then it was not worthy for Pang Tong to serve him.


If someone thinks like this, then that person is very selfish and arrogant. And it that person thinks nothing of the country but only of himself. The advisor is expected to be smarter anyways, so there is not reason to test. If Pang Tong was like that then he deserves to be unemployed.
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