Unfair treatment of Wei Yan!

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Unfair treatment of Wei Yan!

Unread postby Ma Yun » Sat Feb 01, 2003 4:26 pm

In the begining of the book, Liu Bei leaves Zhang Fei to guard a city while he goes to help a friend in battle, and Zhang Fei promises he will not drink while his brothers are away. He goes against what he says and drinks himself into a stuper, and then loses the city to Lu Bu. Liu Bei then forgives him like it wasn't a big deal. Later in a battle, Wei yan is basically sent to his death at the back of the lines by Zhuge Liang and Wei Yan sort of disobeys order because he knew they could win if they stayed in the fight. As a result of this, Zhuge Liang puts him to death, how unfair is that! :x

Mod Edit: Bad grammar. There is no need to use several explanation marks when explaining something, one is just fine and much more appropriate
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Unread postby Carp's Tail » Sat Feb 01, 2003 5:58 pm

You have to understand the context of these two warriors.

Zhang Fei is Liu Bei's sworn brother. There was no way that Liu Bei would ever sentence his brother to death. That would have gone against their Peach Tree Oath. While that may give Zhang Fei extra leeway, Zhang knew that he wanted to live up to Liu Bei's expectations and that he ought not let Liu down.

Wei Yan, on the other hand, was obviously very ambitious. He had no such relationship with Zhuge Liang (the only relationship they had was that of the commander and the commanded). Zhuge Liang knew that Wei Yan's ambition would soon take over once the prime minister died, and so he had to remove the threat that would manifest itself once Wei Yan rebelled. Zhuge Liang knew about this threat as soon as Liu Bei took Changsha from Han Xuan--he had challenged Wei Yan as being untrustworthy, but only Liu Bei held Zhuge Liang in check and saved Wei Yan.

Letting down your brother is one thing. Being disloyal to your master is quite another story.
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Unread postby SoSZ Patch 0506B » Sat Feb 01, 2003 6:14 pm

Why then if Wei Yan was condemned to be a traitor for killing Han Xuan, was Gong Zhi praised after he killed his lord, Jin Xuan?

This topic should be in the novel section though.
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Unread postby Carp's Tail » Sat Feb 01, 2003 10:38 pm

I don't know why Gong Zhi was spared. Perhaps Liu Bei/Zhuge Liang didn't see the same kind of treachery in Gong Zhi as Zhuge Liang saw in Wei Yan.

Anyway, this really should be in the SGYY Symposium. Mod!
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Unread postby TheGreatNads » Sun Feb 02, 2003 5:34 am

Carp's Tail wrote:You have to understand the context of these two warriors.

Zhang Fei is Liu Bei's sworn brother.


Not so, historically Zhang Fei, Liu Bei, and Guan Yu never swore an oath of brotherhood.

Carp's Tail wrote:Zhuge Liang knew that Wei Yan's ambition would soon take over once the prime minister died


That's an absurd assumption of yours.

Carp's Tail wrote:and so he had to remove the threat that would manifest itself once Wei Yan rebelled.


One problem: Wei Yan never rebelled!

Carp's Tail wrote:Letting down your brother is one thing. Being disloyal to your master is quite another story.


That is true, but Wei Yan merely wanted to keep fighting Wei. He had the same dream as Liu Bei and felt that his idea would better help accomplish it than Zhuge Liang's.(And he was probably right.) Wei Yan was not the rebel he's made out to be. He was loyal to Liu Bei until his(Wei Yan's) death.
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Unread postby Ender » Sun Feb 02, 2003 5:41 am

TheGreatNads wrote:One problem: Wei Yan never rebelled!


Wei Yan bio wrote:After Zhuge Liang died, Wei Yan intended to send his body home and continue the attack on Wei. However, Zhuge Liang’s last orders were to turn the vanguard into the rearguard and issue a retreat. Wei Yan refused the order and a crisis erupts in the Shu camps. Eventually, Ma Dai slays Wei Yan on account of treason


He went against the Prime Ministers orders to retreat so that could be considered rebelling. Now don't take my head off I agree he shouldn't have been killed just because he wanted to fight. If only Zhuge could have gotten along with him......think of the possability's.
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Re: Unfair treatment of Wei Yan!!!!

Unread postby DarkAnthem » Sun Feb 02, 2003 7:10 am

Ma Yun wrote:In the begining of the book Liu Bei leaves Zhang Fei to gurd a city while he goes to help a friend in battle, and Zhang Fei promises he will not drink while his brothers are away. he goes against what he says and drinks himself into a stuper,and then loses the city to LuBu. then Liu Bei forgives him like it wasn't a big deal.Later in a battle Wei yan is basically sent to his death at the back of the ligns by Zhuge Liang and Wei Yan sort of disobeys order because he knew they could win if they stayed in the fight Zhuge Liang puts him to death how unfair is that!!!!!!!!!! :x


actually, their chances of winning if they kept on going in that campaign was basically zero. Sima Yi wouldn't go out of his camp regardless of how Kong Ming tried to lure him out, and Shu would eventually run out of supplies, and then Kong Ming dies of illness after months of trying to get Sima Yi to come out, but now they suddenly have a good chance of winning if they stayed? Wei Yan refused to turn back mostly because he didn't like Yang Yi and didn't want to take his orders, not because he thought there was a good chance of winning if they stayed.

also, there is no direct evidence that Kong Ming had anything to do with Wei Yan's death, the only thing closest is in Wei Yan's SGZ bio where it said Kong Ming called upon Yang Yi, Jiang Wei, and a few others before death, gave them a method of how to retreat and told them to deal with Wei Yan accordingly if he disobeyed orders, and it's Wei Yan's own fault for disobeying orders, not Kong Ming's. Since Yang Yi was left in charge, he most likely would have killed Wei Yan anyways even if it wasn't for Kong Ming's last words, as Yang Yi never liked Wei Yan, and Wei Yan disobeying orders would be enough of an excuse for Yang Yi to kill Wei Yan.

Also, you have to understand that Kong Ming and Liu Bei deal with their subordinates differently, as Liu Bei often hesitates to execute someone for personal reasons, and Kong Ming was a legalist and usually tries to enforce military laws at its fullest. It maybe unfair that Zhang Fei was forgiven and not Wei Yan (Kong Ming was not the one not forgiving Wei Yan BTW), but they were under different commanders, so there's not much that can be said; if one serves under a commander and breaks the rules under that commander, he can't just say "well I could have got off if I was under xxx instead of you, so I should be forgiven", it doesn't work that way.
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Unread postby Zhou Tai » Sun Feb 02, 2003 10:54 am

Ender wrote:He went against the Prime Ministers orders to retreat so that could be considered rebelling. Now don't take my head off I agree he shouldn't have been killed just because he wanted to fight. If only Zhuge could have gotten along with him......think of the possability's.


Indeed, Zhuge would of probably heeded Wei Yan's advise to attack Chang An if they got on better.

Wei Yan was pratically the only decent general Shu had after Zhuge's death and like its stated he never rebelled, and Ma Dai was ordered to assasinate him.
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Unread postby Carp's Tail » Sun Feb 02, 2003 3:08 pm

While you are right about the history, Nads, Ma Yun's question was about the book--so I took the question in the SGYY novel context, not Chen Shou's SGZ histories.

Ma Yun wrote:In the begining of the book, Liu Bei leaves Zhang Fei to guard a city while he goes to help a friend in battle...


Otherwise, I agree with everything else you've said.
Engage in combat fully determined to die and you will be alive; wish to survive in the battle and you will surely meet death.
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Unread postby DarkAnthem » Sun Feb 02, 2003 6:08 pm

Zhou Tai wrote:Indeed, Zhuge would of probably heeded Wei Yan's advise to attack Chang An if they got on better.


I sort of doubt it; the main reason Kong Ming rejected Wei Yan's plan was because he was too cautious to take such a big risk, not really because he didn't like Wei Yan.
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