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Unread postby Lady Wu » Sat Aug 28, 2004 5:28 am

Well, there are a few women who were noteworthy.

Lady Wu: Helped Sun Quan a lot when he started leading the state at a young age, and had a great impact on the state. (See Lady Wu's SGZ bio).

Cao Jie: Daughter of Cao Cao and wife to Empress Xian, she opposed Cao Pi's ascension to the throne. She refused to hand over her cord and seal of rank, and hurled abuses at Cao Pi's messengers. (See Empress Cao's HHS bio; I posted it in the Q&A thread).

Cai Yan: as discussed above.

Madame Xu: Sun Yi's wife. She was good at divination and predicted that Sun Yi's subordinates were not well-meaning when they invited Sun Yi to a banquet. Sun Yi went anyway, and was murdered. The conspirators scapegoated another person, and wanted to take over Sun Yi's possessions and his wife. Madame Xu feigned consent, and secretly notified a bunch of people, drew up a plan, and killed the conspirators before they could get their hands on her.

Xin Xianying: Daughter of Xin Pi. According to the Shiyu, a collection of anecdotes, her grandson Xiahou Zhan wrote a biography of her, saying: "Xianying was intelligent and wise. Emperor Wen [Cao Pi] contended against Prince of Chensi [Cao Zhi] for the place of crown prince, and Emperor Wen won and became emperor. He wrapped his arms around Xin Pi's neck and said, `Do you know how happy I am, Master Xin?' Xin Pi told Xianying about that, who sighed and said, `A crown prince is one who takes the place of the lord and continues the ancestral sacrifies. One who takes the place of their lord cannot lack solemnity, and one who runs a country cannot be without fear. While he should be solemn, he shows happiness. How can his reign endure? Wei will certainly not prosper!.'

"Xianying's younger brother, Xin Chang, was aide-de-camp to Cao Shuang. When Prince Sima [Sima Yi] was going to execute Cao Shuang, he locked the city gates since Cao Shuang was outside the city. Lu Zhi, Major of the General-in-Chief, led Cao Shuang's personal guard to cut down the gate guards and leave the city to find Cao Shuang. He first went to ask Xin Chang to go with him. Xin Chang was scared, and asked Xianying, "The Emperor is outside, and the Grand Tutor has barred the city gates. They say that he is plotting against the state. What should I do?'

"Xianying siad, 'There are things in the world that cannot be fathomed, but in my opinion, the Grand Tutor is not being subversive. When Emperor Ming [Cao Rui] was on his deathbed, he grabbed the Grand Tutor's arm, and entrusted him with everything. What he said to him is still fresh in the minds of all the ministers. Cao Shuang, on the other hand, was also entrusted with supporting the new emperor along with the Grand tutor, and yet he monopolized power and abused it. His conduct is arrogant and wasetful. To the court, he is unloyal; to mankind, he is dishonest. [Sima Yi's] action is not going to be more than for executing Cao Shuang.'

"Xin Chang then said, "If that is so, can [Sima Yi] succeed?'

"'He will certainly succeed without difficulty!' said Xianying. 'Cao Shuang is no match for the Grand tutor.'

"'Then, should I stay here and not go out [with Lu Zhi]?' asked Xin Chang.

"Xianying replied, `How can you not go with him? Fulfilling your duties is your obligation. Even if a stranger is in trouble, you should still feel pity for him; and now, you are working for someone. If you abandon him now, it would be inauspicious. It is inadvisable. Furthermore, dying for someone or obeying someone is the task of close confederates, and you are acting only because you're following others.' Thus Xin Chang left the city [to join Cao Shuang]. Prince [Sima Yi] indeed executed Cao Shuang.

"After all was calmed down, Xin Chang sighed and said, 'If I had not consulted with my sister, I would not have been spared on the account of my honour.'

"Later, Zhong Hui became General Who Guards the West. Xianying asked Yang Hu, her nephew, "Why did Zhong Shiji [Zhong Hui] go west?' Yang Hu answered, 'They are about to destroy Shu.' Xianying said, 'Zhong Hui is unrestrained and haughty in office, and does not keep to the ways of being a minister. I fear that he has subversive thoughts.' Yang Hu said, 'Younger aunt, do not say so much.'

"After that, Zhong Hui petitioned for her son Yang Xiu to be his aide-de-camp. Xianying became worried, 'The other day, when I saw Zhong Hui go out, I was worried for the country. Now disaster is crawling upon my family. This is a grave matter of the state, and cannot be stopped.' Yang Xiu pleaded with Prince Sima [Yi] [to allow him to not go to Zhong Hui], but the Prince would not listen.

"So Xianying said to Xiu, 'You are about to leave. Be careful! The gentlemen of the old days sought to exert themselves in filial piety when they're living at home, and to exter themselves in loyalty and honour when they're out working for the state. Your task is to keep in mind your office, and your honous is to keep in mind your values. Do not let your parents have cause for worry--that is all. When you are with the army, the only things that will carry you through are benevolence and magnanimity. Be careful!' Thus Yang Xiu managed to stay unscathed [through Zhong Hui's rebellion].

Xin Xianying lived to be 79, and died in the 5th year of the Taishi reign [AD 269]." (Excerpt translated from Pei's notes, Xin Pi's SGZ bio)
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Unread postby Erdrick » Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:55 pm

Mengdez New Book wrote:Despite Cai Yan, there are many other famous ladies in the Sanguo history. One of them was Zhen Luo (甄洛). Zhen Luo was Cao Pi's wife, she came from Zhong Shan Wu Ji (中山無極). She was daughter to Shang Cai Ling (上蔡令 - Officer's rank), Zhen Yi (甄逸).

....



Out of curiousity, where does it mention Lady Zhen's given name...? Never saw it before, (and been looking...) Or, it is due to the connection with her and the poem of Cao Pi's about the Lady of the Luo River...?


Plus, someone mentioned there is a poem of Cai Yan's; there are actually three... I will post them in the Cai Yan thread when I have them in front of me.
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Unread postby lambda » Sat Oct 02, 2004 5:33 am

May I know Cai Yan's age at the time where her father Cai Yong was beheaded?
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Sun Aug 07, 2005 2:34 am

lambda wrote:May I know Cai Yan's age at the time where her father Cai Yong was beheaded?

It's unknown when Cai Yan was born.

And, to bump this thread, here's another woman of the 3k era. I had posted this in another thread that's threatening to disappear into oblivion, so this seems to be the place to preserve it. I present to you---

Zhao E-qin, mother of Pang Yu (Sometimes identified as Qin Nuxiu)

Lady Wu wrote:Here's a brief summary of what I could find.

The earliest mention of Qin Nü Xiu (秦女休) was in a poem by the a Wei court musician called Zuo Yannian (左延年). Zuo doesn't have any mention in the SGZ, but my copy of the "Complete Prose Writings of the Three Kingdoms" (全三國文) claims that he was some middle-ranked officer in charge of music during Cao Rui's reign (during the Taihe years). The poem in Chinese is:

步出上西门,遥望秦氏庐。秦氏有好女,自名为女休,休年十四五,为宗行报仇。左执白杨刃,右据宛鲁矛。仇家便东南,仆僵秦女休,女休西上山,上山四五里。关吏呵问女休,女休前致词。平生为燕王妇,於今为诏狱囚,平生衣参差,当今无领襦。明知杀人当死,兄言怏怏,弟言无道忧。女休坚词:为宗报仇死不疑。杀人都市中,徼我都市西。丞卿罗列东向坐,女休凄凄曳梏前,两徒夹我持,刀刃五尺馀。刀未下,瞳胧击鼓赦书下。

It tells of the a young woman called (Nü) Xiu [ means "woman"], who went to avenge some family members at the age of 14~15. A sword and a halberd in hand, she sought long for her enemies. After killing them, she fled westward, but was caught by the authorities. Her brothers, knowing that the penalty for killing was death, were sad; Qin Nü Xiu herself, though, said that she would not regret death since it was for the avenging of her family. She then was escorted to the marketplace for execution. Right before she was to be beheaded, an amnesty came and saved her life.

The problem with this poem is that the heroine at some point said that she used to be "the wife of the King of Yan". There was no King of Yan during the 3K times, and it's not clear who this Qin Nü Xiu was. However, a later poem by Fu Xuan (217~278; he was involved in the compilation of the History of Wei), titled "Ballad of Qin Nü Xiu", seems to tell the same story, but has elements that are identifiable in history:

庞氏有烈妇,义声驰雍凉。父母家有重怨,仇人暴且强。虽有男兄弟,志弱不能当。烈女念此痛,丹心为寸伤。外若无意者,内潜思无方。白日入都市,怨家如平常。匿剑藏白刃,一奋寻身僵。身首为之异处,伏尸列肆旁。肉与土合成泥,洒血溅飞梁。猛气上干云霓,仇党失守对披攘。一市称烈义,观者收泪并慨慷。百男何当益?不如一女良。烈女直造县门,云:‘父不幸。遭祸殃。今仇身以(已)分裂虽死情益扬,杀人当伏辜,义不苟活隳旧章’。县令解印绶,‘令我伤心不忍听’。刑部垂头塞耳,‘令我吏举不能成’。烈著希代之绩,义立无穷之名。夫家同受其祚,子子孙孙咸享其荣。今我作歌咏高风,激扬壮发悲且清。

This poem tells the story of a woman of the Pang family (the name "Qin Nü Xiu" is not mentioned), whose father was killed by a rival. The enemy being powerful, her brothers did not wish to take him on. The lady, grieved by this vendetta not settled, took a blade with her, went into the city in broad daylight, tracked down the man and cut his head off. Everyone in town was moved by her courage. She then went to turn herself in to the authorities. The prefect, hearing her story, became so sad that he resigned from office so he did not have to pass judgement on her case, and even the imperial department of justice lamented that they could not carry out the law. The woman's valour and honour were praised by people ever after.

This sounds exactly like the story of Pang Yu's mother as recorded by Chen Shou in SGZ and by Huangfu Mi (another late Wei/early Jin figure) in the "Stories of Praiseworthy Women" (also quoted by Pei Songzhi in his annotations to SGZ). Here is Huangfu's account: (it's long, but it's better than Crouching Tiger, I think 8-). Sit tight. )

There is a woman called E-qin from Jiuchuan [aka Pang Yu's mommy], whose father, Zhao Jun'an, was killed by one Li Shou from the same prefecture. E-qin had three younger brothers, who all desired to avenge their father, and Li Shou was wary of them. One year, there was a great pestilence in the land which killed the three brothers. Li Shou was glad, and threw a big party in celebration, saying, "The strong men of the Zhao family are all dead, and we won't have to worry about their women, the weaker sex." He thus let his guard down. This news reached Pang Yu's ears, and he promptly reported to his mother.

E-qin had long harboured thoughts of revenge in her heart, and when she heard her son's report, she became even more determined. Tears rolling down her face, she said, "Li Shou, don't you rejoice yet! I will not let you live! By the heavens above and the earth below, my three brothers will be shamed, if I do not slay you by my own hand. How could you dare to celebrate?" Thereupon, she secretly traded for renowned blades; she would carry the weapons on her, and day and night she would weep and lament, vowing to kill Li Shou.

Li Shou, being a bold and violent man, took to arming himself and travelling on horseback all the time, after hearing E-qin's words. All from the village were afraid of him. E-qin's neighbour, Mrs. Xu, feared that E-qin could not control herself and get harmed by Li Shou instead, and often pleaded with her to give up the idea. "Li Shou is a man," she would say, "and his violence is self-evident even if he was not armed like he is these days. Madame Zhao, I know you have courageous ambitions and a strong will, but you are no match for his strength. Should you be unable to overcome him, Li Shou will bring disaster on you, destroying your family, redoubling your shame. I pray you reconsider your action, for the sake of your family."

E-qin replied, "I will not live between the same heaven and earth with my parents' foe, nor share the same sun and moon with him. For as long as Li Shou lives, I have nothing to look forward to in this world; living has no meaning for me. Though my brothers have died young and my family decimated, I breathe still; how can I wish for others to do the deed for me? Though from your perspective, I should not attempt to kill Li Shou, my heart tells me clearly that Li Shou must fall by my hand."

Every night she would sharpen her swords, and then, clenching her fists and grinding her teeth, she would weep and sigh. Her family members as well as her neighbours all made fun of her. E-qin said to them, "You laugh at me only because you do not believe that I could kill Li Shou, the weak woman that I am. I will go, and dye this blade with the blood of his neck, and prove you wrong." Thus she abandoned her household chores, and travelled in a rustic open-back cart to seek her foe.

One early morning in the beginning of the second month of the second year of the Guanghe reign, she encountered Li Shou in front of the police outpost. She got of her cart, seized the reigns of Li Shou's horse, and hurled abuses at him. Li Shou was stunned with fear, and tried to turn his horse around to leave. E-qin summoned all her might and hacked at him, but only injured his horse. Frightened, the horse threw Li Shou off into a ditch by the roadside. E-qin tried to smite him from where she was standing, but she hit a tree instead and broke her sword. Seeing that Li Shou was injured but not dead yet, she went up to him, trying to take his own sword to kill him. Li Shou held on to his weapon, stared at her, and with a yell, jumped out of the ditch. E-qin straightened herself and attacked him with her bare hands. With her left palm, she hit his forehead, and with her right hand she seized his throat. Li Shou struggled to get free, but at last he fell. Thereupon, E-qin unsheathed his sword and cut his head off.

Her enemy's head in hand, she went to turn herself in at the police outpost, plead guilty, and walked towards the jail with a somber expression on her face. The prefect, Yin Jia, could not bring himself to trying E-qin, so he abandoned his position and tried to arrange for her to escape. E-qin said to him, "My enemy I killed, and now it's time for me to die. I do understand that much! Your duty is to uphold the law and administer just punishment. How can I obstruct the law by seeking to live?" The denizens of the entire city, hearing about that, all left what they were doing to catch a glimpse of her. Traffic was brought to a standstill.

Seeing so many onlookers, the guards did not dare to let her go in public, so they whispered to her to steal away in secret and lie low. E-qin spoke even more loudly and clearly, "My wish is not to break the law and run away from death. My enemy has paid his debt, and my fate is simply to die. I beg to be punished under the law in order to preserve the honour of this country. I will not flinch at ten thousand deaths, but I dare not cause you to ignore your duties for the love of my own life." The policemen would not listen to her.

E-qin said again, "Though I am an insignificant, unschooled country woman, I know the laws and regulations of the nation. A murder does not go unpunished. I have violated the law now, and there is no reason for me to escape from the consequences. I beg only to be executed during the morning market, to uphold the laws of the king. This is my sole desire!"

Her speech became bolder yet, and no sign of fear crossed her face. The police chief, knowing that she would not be convinced, put her on a cart and forcefully took her home. [Though Huangfu only implied it, Chen Shou's account specifically says that she was pardoned later by a general amnesty.]

The Inspector of Liangzhou Province, Zhou Hong, the Grand Administrator of Jiuchuan, Liu Ban, and others all memorialized to the throne praising her valour and honour, and erected plaques to honour her family. The Grand Master of Ceremonies, Zhan Huan of Hongnong, so respected her deeds that he presented her with twenty bolts of fine silk. All within the four seas praised her name and honoured her action.

----

Fu Xuan's poem probably just borrowed the name of Zuo Yannian's poem, which was about somebody else (the real QNX). Mrs Pang, nee Zhao, is not QNX, even though they had been identified as the same person in the literature (the article points out that the eminent scholar/writer Hu Shi was one who supported the view that they are the same). Going back to the original question, the "Qin Xiu" referred to in the Mulan thing most likely means Mrs Pang of the Latter Han period.

PS: However, a case could also be made for the the author of that Mulan thing meaning to refer to the legendary woman described by Zuo Yannian's poem, which *was* written during the 3K times. Mrs. Pang doesn't count as a 3K figure really, though she was mentioned in the Records of the Three Kingdoms and by people like Huangfu Mi and Fu Xuan who sort of lived during the 3K (they were really Jin officers).

PPS: Xiahou Ji: I forgot what possessed me to google for "烈女傳", but by happy chance the article which I linked to showed up on the first page of the results with the name 秦女休 in the title. :D
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Sun Aug 07, 2005 2:36 am

Cao Cao's daughter's biography, from the HHS:


HHS wrote:Empress Cao of Emperor Xian's personal name is Jie, and she was the middle daughter of Cao Cao, Duke of Wei. In the 18th year of the Jian'an reign, Cao Cao sent in three of his daughters--Cao Xian, Cao Jie, and Cao Hua--to be Ladies of the Court, and received 50,000 bolts of dark silk cloth as the gift from the groom's family. The youngest daughter remained in her fief as she was not of marriageable age yet. In the 19th year, all of them were made Honoured Ladies. Empress Fu was murdered, and in the year after that, Cao Jie was made Empress. When Wei received the throne [from Han], the court sent an envoy to take the Empress' cord and seal from her. The Empress was infuriated and refused to give them up. More envoys were sent, and finally the Empress ordered them to come in the room. She personally rebuked them over and over, and then, her face covered in tears, she tossed the seal onto the floor and said, "May the Heavens not protect your reign!" None of those present dared to look up upon her countenance. She was empress for 7 years.

After the Wei court was settled, she was made Lady of the Duke of Shanyang. She died in the fist year of the Jingchu reign of Wei [AD 237], at the age of 41. She was buried along with [the ex-Emperor Xian], and her funeral and all related ceremonies were conducted according to the Han rites.
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Unread postby Jason » Sun Jan 08, 2006 6:59 am

I noticd one of Cai Yans poems is called Cai Wenji(so the link says, it was posted on page one)


Is this were the idea for "Cai Wengi" from Kessen 2 came from?
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Sun Jan 08, 2006 7:02 am

Ezekiel wrote:I noticd one of Cai Yans poems is called Cai Wenji(so the link says, it was posted on page one)


Is this were the idea for "Cai Wengi" from Kessen 2 came from?

Probably! Wengi is probably a misspelling for Wenji (gi and ji sound the same in English anyway...)
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King of Yan

Unread postby Xian Xu » Sat Aug 05, 2006 7:11 pm

Lady Wu wrote:The problem with this poem is that the heroine at some point said that she used to be "the wife of the King of Yan". There was no King of Yan during the 3K times, and it's not clear who this Qin Nü Xiu was.

Gongsun Yuan proclaimed himself King of Yan (Yan = 燕). I do not think that Gongsun Yuan was her husband, because I do not think it would fit the story, I was just pointing it out.
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Re: King of Yan

Unread postby Xian Xu » Sat Aug 05, 2006 8:30 pm

Xian Xu wrote:
Lady Wu wrote:The problem with this poem is that the heroine at some point said that she used to be "the wife of the King of Yan". There was no King of Yan during the 3K times, and it's not clear who this Qin Nü Xiu was.

Gongsun Yuan proclaimed himself King of Yan (Yan = 燕). I do not think that Gongsun Yuan was her husband, because I do not think it would fit the story, I was just pointing it out.


I was browsing the forums a bit, and it looks like this observation came up in different thread called Qin Xiu. :D

Lady Wu wrote:
crustyrustyaphid wrote:not to be against what you say but didn't Gongsun "rebel" Yuan decide to pull a fast one on the kingdom of Wei by proclaiming himself King of Yan?

That's actually a really good observation. That may be possible, but I don't think it's probably for two reasons: Zuo Yannian was a court musician of the Wei, and it is unlikely that he would use "King of Yan" to refer to Gongsun Yuan (since that would seem seditious); furthermore, the rise and fall of Gongsun Yuan coincides with the same period that we know Zuo served in the Wei court in (hmm, I'm not sure that's a grammatical sentence, but the point is that the only information we have on Zuo is that he worked during Cao Rui's reign, and Gongsun Yuan was also during Cao Rui's reign), and the material seems a bit too contemporary for this type of ballad style.
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Unread postby JamesD » Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:53 pm

You know in history Cai yong dosen't exist.
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