Could Zhang Jiao have been successful?

Join the Romance of the Three Kingdoms discussion with our resident Scholars. Topics relating to the novel and history are both welcome. Don't forget to check the Forum Rules before posting.
Kongming’s Archives: Romance of the Three Kingdoms
Three Kingdoms Officer Biographies
Three Kingdoms Officer Encyclopedia
Scholars of Shen Zhou Search Tool

Could Zhang Jiao have been successful?

Unread postby Asellas » Sun Jan 19, 2003 5:31 pm

I was just wondreing if Zhang Jiao did beat He Jin and if he did would he have survived in the conflict between Wu,Shu and Wei.

I don't think so but you may think different.
"Winter is coming".
"I like hurting people...it's what I do best because I am heartless".
"Love is for poets, romance is for playwrights, and sex is for procreation - I desire none of them"
User avatar
Asellas
Lord of Winterfell
 
Posts: 4043
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 4:12 pm
Location: Winterfell

Unread postby Tianshan Zi » Sun Jan 19, 2003 6:01 pm

No, I don't think that he could have been successful, even if he had survived or defeated He Jin. None of the other nobles would have allowed such a threatening variable to remain for very long.
User avatar
Tianshan Zi
Headless Thompson Gunner
 
Posts: 928
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 3:18 pm
Location: Denver, Colorado, USA, Earth, etc.

Unread postby Wen Choung » Mon Jan 20, 2003 4:31 am

I don't think so either. I don't think peasant uprisings ever succeed. There may be a few cases that I do not know, but if that's the case, then the chances I'd say are low.

Especially in the time of ancient China where soldiers blindly follow their lord. I've always wondered, if conditions are so bad, why don't the armies turn on their lord or emperor? I never truly understood that, but I suppose it was that era's culture.

Plus the people were not trained and equipped properly. Didn't SGYY say they carried farm tools and such? Thus the end result would be Zhang Jiao fails.
User avatar
Wen Choung
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 857
Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2002 1:27 am

Unread postby Cao Ren » Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:50 am

He could have been successful in a li jue situation. He may have be able to smash the han, but there would be too many warlords looking for vengeance and power. He would not be able to handle these along with tribes bordering him. I think he would be killed in a short time. His brothers wouldn't be able to recover if he were to die.
User avatar
Cao Ren
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 897
Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2002 4:17 pm

Unread postby Mengdez New Book » Mon Jan 20, 2003 3:55 pm

Most probably not, they didn't really have any experience in governing an Empire. Also, they rise up because of the difficulties they were facing under Han Dynasty, with this, they didn't really have a good Agenda to support them until buidling a great Empire like Han.
User avatar
Mengdez New Book
No Title
 
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2003 4:35 am

Unread postby Han Xin » Mon Jan 20, 2003 4:02 pm

NO.... Zhang Jiao's troops mainly made up of peasants and even if their number were great, there no chance that they could beat the government troops.
Han Xin's past-time - 沉湎於酒, 淫於聲色, 左手擁華姬,右手抱越女:lol:
User avatar
Han Xin
Shu Emperor
 
Posts: 1244
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 1:20 am
Location: In the middle between Love and Lust. ^_^

Unread postby Alucard » Mon Jan 20, 2003 7:42 pm

governement troops were trained. peasent werent. its kinda like saying a master swordsmen fighting a novice swordsmen. one slash and on the ground.
I don't regret the decision I made that day. Even now. But...my heart still aches. I..I want to follow my heart. Whether it is right or wrong will be judged by history. - Pahn
User avatar
Alucard
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 2059
Joined: Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:57 pm
Location: In a house where I open a door and another door appears.

Unread postby Lady Wu » Fri Jan 24, 2003 5:57 am

I think MNB has a good point. Zhang Jiao's agenda consists of "overthrowing Han", but after that, nothing. His skill of organising people was amazing, as it was not simple to get so many people all over the place to rise in rebellion and strike such a blow to the current infrastructure. They even had a few victories over the government troops earlier on.

Though most of the government troops were no more than recruited peasants given swords, and Zhang Jiao's people were fuelled by passion, there was no way the Yellow Turbans could have won. They lacked a political agenda, and did not secure enough support with those with power/money/education. Though they had bribed one of the top eunuchs (I forget who), he turned double-crosser to them and betrayed their uprising date.

Even if they could overcome the government troops, internal struggle will arise, and like others have said, other warlords with more power/money/intelligence will come and crush them.
"Whatever you do, don't fall off the bridge! It'll be a pain to try to get back up again." - Private, DW 8
User avatar
Lady Wu
There's no better state than Wu
There's no better state than Wu
 
Posts: 12791
Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2002 2:35 am
Location: Wu-ere else?

Unread postby CK » Fri Jan 24, 2003 8:40 am

The original intentions of the uprising may be pure but I for one am skeptical about how centrally organised the rebellion was. There was no doubt that they were all followers of Zhang Jiao but I would see it more as a dynamo effect than a planned uprising in the different parts of China. (Of course, please correct me if I am wrong for I am not backed by historical evidence, just mere conjectures)

Certainly, the yellow turban rebellion had failed but at its peak, it is certain that a group of peasants and taoists would be at a loss of what to do with the lands they gained etc which Lady Wu and Guang Rong rightly pointed out. The implication however is that as such an organization grew in power, corruption would also seep into its structure and since the rebellion was in certain ways opportunistic, I would say that internal strife and corruption would bring the "heavenly kingdom" down too.

Just to add on something about the yellow turban though not directly connected with this particular topic, this rebellion must be significant. There is no doubt that it was doomed for failure. Nevertheless, its the first mass-organized resistance/uprising against feudalism and that alone is a truly revolutionary thing as future generations would view it as an example, or even counter-example.
Truth is always partial

Absense of dream creates nothing but dream creates absense if you do nothing
User avatar
CK
Changshi
 
Posts: 399
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2002 4:30 pm
Location: Singapore

Unread postby GuangRong » Fri Jan 24, 2003 9:07 am

Though, the yellow turban rebelion is wide-spread, alot are are just bandits or oppounist trying to ride on the influence of the movement..

apart from Zhang Jiao's own troops, the various groups were'nt really under the their command, though they stand unnder the same banner..

Contast that to the Tai Ping Rebelion, which is a Planned and very well Organized

Religion is the best rallying cry, Its the languge the pesants and illitrate common people will understand..

All uprising since the times of Chen Shen And Wu Guang always involved some of "divine" intervention
Magister mundi sum!!
User avatar
GuangRong
Langzhong
 
Posts: 490
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2003 7:45 am
Location: Oblivion

Next

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 7 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved