Liu Qi's Death: Poison?

[Tianshan Zi]

As I'm reading SGYY for the second time, I might simply be reading more into the subtext of the novel; however, I find the death of Liu Qi, the event allowing Liu Bei to claim Jingzhou in good conscience, to be quite suspect. The novel describes Liu Qi as wasting away because of his decadent excesses, but I'm having difficulty accepting this cause at face value.

Now, without accusing any esteemed historical personages, I want to make the suggestion that Zhuge Liang (Kongming) might have had Liu Qi poisoned over a protracted period of time in order to ensure that Liu Bei would take control of and retain Jingzhou before Cao Cao and/or Sun Quan could conquer/recapture the territory. In the novel, Kongming repeatedly expresses his wish that Liu Bei take over his relatives' territory, but Liu Bei consistently refuses to do so. By speeding along Liu Qi's death, Kongming attempted to salvage his master plan for bringing his lord to power and forming the Three Kingdoms.

Again, I am not accusing Kongming of this murder, because I have no proof; however, I do want to open this topic up for discussion. I would also be interested in hearing what more historically accurate sources say about Liu Qi's health, his death, and Liu Bei's takeover of Jingzhou.

Thanks.

[Ender]

Ha, if Kongming did it I don't have any problem with it. It would have been a good idea. Since Liu Bei wouldn't take his family's land have his family killed.

Of course theres no proof he did poison Liu Qi but he might have, or he might not have. Liu Bei wouldn't take Jingzhou that was needed for Liu Bei to get anywhere and Kongming knew he had to take it. If Kongming saw a need to do that he might have but then again there's no proof.

[Tianshan Zi]

Ha, if Kongming did it I don't have any problem with it. It would have been a good idea. Since Liu Bei wouldn't take his family's land have his family killed.

Of course theres no proof he did poison Liu Qi but he might have, or he might not have. Liu Bei wouldn't take Jingzhou that was needed for Liu Bei to get anywhere and Kongming knew he had to take it. If Kongming saw a need to do that he might have but then again there's no proof.

:nods: Yes, I think that the idea itself is fascinating and that the act would accomplish for Kongming what his verbal suggestions could not; however, as Ender restates, there is no proof. What do others out there think (or know)?

[Lance]

I believe Kong Ming is perfectly capable of doing so...he's ruthless enough and sees alot of good coming from it for his ruler...

[Erdrick]

Maybe, but wasn't Liu Qi in poor health most of his life? I recall Liu Biao thinking his younger son (Zong) was mentally not up to the task of running his domain when he died, while the elder son, (Qi), was weak (seemingly in body). If Liu Qi was already in poor health, Zhuge could have sped it along, but given the amount of time it took, plus the poor health beforehand, I would say that the chances are not too likely for the poisoning theory.

[Starscream]

Hehehe...I like this idea of Kong Ming being a murderer. It could well be the case since Liu Qi's death was so well-timed (after assisting Liu Bei to escape Dang Yang and after Chibi => stability in Jingzhou). I'm not intending to distort history or anything, but whatever Chen Shou did not record in SGZ, does not mean that there's no possibility of something happening. It's a wild idea and awfully dangerous to Kong Ming's reputation, hence, Liu Qi's death could be deduced to be due to illness instead of poisoning and Chen Shou could well have recorded accordingly. Liu Bei couldn't possibly do the poisoning himself, that's a sure thing, and another suspicious point is that Liu Qi was a young man and should be in good health (unless there's epidemic in the south). Anyway, this is just a guess, no harm done, I hope!

[GuangRong]

Yep, some books I read on the subject had hinted at the convenient death of Liu Qi..,

still, its not uncommon for young people to die abrutly during those time,
In a family, its almost a certainty some of the children will not survive till adulthood...

may be he had asthma(sp?) ...,

some how he come across as one who would have asthma..

[Mengdez New Book]

If this really happen, all the people who admire Kong Ming around the World will be heart break...anyway, interesting idea indeed, do Kong Ming really do it, we don't really know but how about is Liu Bei who call Kong Ming to poison Liu Qi? Both of them just acting in front of others in order to gain the Grammy Award, i mean the good name in history...

[Ender]

I like Kongming and belive it was a good idea if he did poison him. Liu Bei needed the land and Kongming was going to get it for him one way or another. In war feeling's have no place, you must do what needs to be done.

[Carp's Tail]

That is quite interesting. In an analogous situation in the SGYY, Pang Tong agreed with Kongming that Liu Zhang's Shu had to be seized by Liu Bei in order to begin the process of recovering the Han dynasty. Pang Tong had set up the swordplay by Wei Yan and Liu Feng in a feigned dance so that Liu Zhang could be "accidentally" killed by these two. This shows that there is at least ONE officer under Liu Bei who had the gumption to OVERTLY put something into motion (i.e. getting rid of Liu Zhang) in order to realize a bigger dream for Liu Bei.

I would suppose, based on this, that the story would relate Pang Tong's "evil plan" because Pang Tong wasn't so likeable compared to Kongming. He was relatively ugly in appearance whereas Kongming was a veritable god among men (probably not as "handsome" as Zhou Yu, but the description of Kongming's appearance made him seem ethereal and god-like). If Kongming did orchestrate Liu Qi's death (maybe Kongming slipped something into Liu Qi's drink when Liu had begged Kongming for advice?), then neither Chen Shou nor Luo Guanzhong would be keen on revealing that little bit of "underhandedness".