Liu Bei successor's conflict, what do you think?

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Liu Bei successor's conflict, what do you think?

Unread postby Mengdez New Book » Wed Jan 15, 2003 11:17 am

As you all know, Liu Bei had one child name Liu Shan and one adopted child name Liu Feng. Liu Bei adopted Liu Feng after he conquered Fan Cheng. Liu Feng original named was Kou Feng, Fan Cheng’s Yuan Ling (Officer rank’s name) Liu Bi’s (Liu Mi) nephew, Luo Hou Kou Si’s son. Before Liu Bei adopting Liu Feng, Guan Yu advised Liu Bei that Liu Bei already owned Liu Shan, it was unlikely for him to adopt Kou Feng because later both of them maybe will quarreled to become Liu Bei’s successor. Unfortunately, Liu Bei ignored Guan Yu advice.

Then, time passed until Liu Bei realized that he made a big mistake to adopt Liu Feng. In his heart, he wanted Liu Shan to be his successor but he didn’t know how to explain to Liu Feng because Liu Feng was older than Liu Shan. According to Chinese tradition at that time, mostly the oldest son will be the next successor. So, Liu Bei asked Kong Ming’s opinion about this matter and Kong Ming was wise enough to avoid himself to be dragged into this family matter. Kong Ming advised Liu Bei to consider the views from Guan Yu and Zhang Fei. Liu Bei did so and Guan Yu clearly stood at Liu Shan’s side, he said Liu Feng didn’t have any reputation to be Liu Bei’s successor. This action has caused hatred inside Liu Feng’s heart. That’s the reason why Liu Feng didn’t really want to help Guan Yu when Guan Yu surrounded by Wu’s armies at Mai Cheng.

A question rise here, did Liu Bei purposely ‘trapped’ Guan Yu in the successor matter because he didn’t really want Liu Feng to hate him? Well, Liu Bei at the beginning should know well that nobody could involve in family matter because only those who are inside the family should know what to do. Liu Bei nearly killed himself when he told Liu Biao to elect Liu Qi as his successor. Liu Cong’s (Liu Biao younger son) mother Cai Si who knew this conspired with his brother Cai Mao in order to get rid of Liu Bei. With this, Liu Bei should know better than anybody that nobody can involve in the family conflict or matter, why he asked opinion from Kong Ming or Guan Yu? Is he trying to let other to be blamed in his successor issue so that he can remain good and mercy behind all these?
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Re: Liu Bei successor's conflict, what do you think?

Unread postby Han Xin » Wed Jan 15, 2003 12:04 pm

MNB, I know your thread is based on SGYY. But what the heck....

Mengdez New Book wrote:As you all know, Liu Bei had one child name Liu Shan and one adopted child name Liu Feng. Liu Bei adopted Liu Feng after he conquered Fan Cheng. Liu Feng original named was Kou Feng, Fan Cheng’s Yuan Ling (Officer rank’s name) Liu Bi’s (Liu Mi) nephew, Luo Hou Kou Si’s son. Before Liu Bei adopting Liu Feng, Guan Yu advised Liu Bei that Liu Bei already owned Liu Shan, it was unlikely for him to adopt Kou Feng because later both of them maybe will quarreled to become Liu Bei’s successor. Unfortunately, Liu Bei ignored Guan Yu advice.

I always puzzled about this. From SGZ-Shu-Liu Feng, it said that Liu Bei come to ChangSha and adopted Liu Feng because he had NO HEIR. It is obvious that the adoption of Liu Feng had to be made sometime during 209AD-211AD (when Liu Bei actually conquered those southern JingZhou prefectures), however at that time, Liu Shan was already about 2 or 3 years old. So is this a mistake by Chen Shou or Liu Bei geniuenly have not consider Liu Shan as heir yet?... :lol: .... I demand William!!!

Mengdez New Book wrote:Then, time passed until Liu Bei realized that he made a big mistake to adopt Liu Feng. In his heart, he wanted Liu Shan to be his successor but he didn’t know how to explain to Liu Feng because Liu Feng was older than Liu Shan. According to Chinese tradition at that time, mostly the oldest son will be the next successor. So, Liu Bei asked Kong Ming’s opinion about this matter and Kong Ming was wise enough to avoid himself to be dragged into this family matter. Kong Ming advised Liu Bei to consider the views from Guan Yu and Zhang Fei. Liu Bei did so and Guan Yu clearly stood at Liu Shan’s side, he said Liu Feng didn’t have any reputation to be Liu Bei’s successor. This action has caused hatred inside Liu Feng’s heart. That’s the reason why Liu Feng didn’t really want to help Guan Yu when Guan Yu surrounded by Wu’s armies at Mai Cheng.

I don't know how Liu Bei could've reget adopting Liu Feng, Liu Feng was a good general and was put incharge in the defenses of ShangYong (a vital link between JingZhou and YiZhou), and from his bio, it seem he did a good job of it. About not sending troops to Guan Yu, I believe he had problem with Shen Den's rebellion too. So you can't really blamed him.
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Re: Liu Bei successor's conflict, what do you think?

Unread postby Starscream » Wed Jan 15, 2003 12:17 pm

Mengdez New Book wrote:With this, Liu Bei should know better than anybody that nobody can involve in the family conflict or matter, why he asked opinion from Kong Ming or Guan Yu? Is he trying to let other to be blamed in his successor issue so that he can remain good and mercy behind all these?

I don't think Liu Bei had any intention of letting his most trusted subordinates to be in bad blood with his future successors by asking for their opinions on which son to put on the throne. Why should he destroy the trust between his sons and his most most trusted men?

I see Liu Bei consulting Zhuge Liang and Guan Yu because these two were his most trusted fellows among all his other subordinates. Why did Guan Yu favour Liu Feng over Liu Shan in SGYY? My guess is because Liu Shan was the "real" son although he's younger, and Liu Feng's adopted although he's older. In any case, Liu Bei's other dilemma could be that none of his sons were worthy of the throne, or else why did he say to Zhuge Liang to take over the empire if Liu Shan prove to be useless?? :lol:
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Unread postby jiuwan » Wed Jan 15, 2003 12:48 pm

well according to SGYY, Guan Yu was his sworn oath brothers so that would make him family. CUz back then there was a chinese saying that held deep : "Brothers are as arms and legs, cut one off and it's irresplaceable; women and children are as clothing, easily changed."

Since Guan Yu was his sworn brother, that would make his oppinions very high on Liu Bei's list... also zhuge liang was one of his most trusted advisers, so his oppinions also vauled deeply.

and Guan Yu's argument does have some merit to it... chinese tradition was oldest son was to be the successor.... but i'm not sure if that states just oldest son or oldest "blood" son cuz Liu Feng was adopted. So wouldn't that make Liu Shan the legal heir?
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Re: Liu Bei successor's conflict, what do you think?

Unread postby Mengdez New Book » Wed Jan 15, 2003 3:50 pm

Han Xin wrote:MNB, I know your thread is based on SGYY. But what the heck....


Discuss it no matter it is SGZ or SGYY. :wink:

Han Xin wrote:I don't know how Liu Bei could've reget adopting Liu Feng, Liu Feng was a good general and was put incharge in the defenses of ShangYong (a vital link between JingZhou and YiZhou), and from his bio, it seem he did a good job of it. About not sending troops to Guan Yu, I believe he had problem with Shen Den's rebellion too. So you can't really blamed him.


This is interesting, new info for me, i don't really know that is a Shen Den's rebellion. All i know is how Meng Da taught Liu Feng not sent any troops because of Guan Yu's words over Liu Bei. :twisted:
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Re: Liu Bei successor's conflict, what do you think?

Unread postby Mengdez New Book » Wed Jan 15, 2003 3:55 pm

Cai Yan wrote:I don't think Liu Bei had any intention of letting his most trusted subordinates to be in bad blood with his future successors by asking for their opinions on which son to put on the throne. Why should he destroy the trust between his sons and his most most trusted men?

I see Liu Bei consulting Zhuge Liang and Guan Yu because these two were his most trusted fellows among all his other subordinates. Why did Guan Yu favour Liu Feng over Liu Shan in SGYY? My guess is because Liu Shan was the "real" son although he's younger, and Liu Feng's adopted although he's older. In any case, Liu Bei's other dilemma could be that none of his sons were worthy of the throne, or else why did he say to Zhuge Liang to take over the empire if Liu Shan prove to be useless?? :lol:


You never know, Liu Bei and Cao Cao were the same, their both were evil :twisted: (Don't know other word better than this, anyone help?) characters in Sanguo. If you compare Liu Bei relationship with his adopted child and his sworn brother relatinoship with his adopted child. Which one will Liu Bei choose? :twisted:
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Wed Jan 15, 2003 9:25 pm

yeah but Liu bei do not whip and slay his people like cao cao did and plus cao cao have even more sons than Liu bei.
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Re: Liu Bei successor's conflict, what do you think?

Unread postby jiuwan » Thu Jan 16, 2003 12:18 am

If you compare Liu Bei relationship with his adopted child and his sworn brother relatinoship with his adopted child. Which one will Liu Bei choose? :twisted:[/quote]

most likely he would choose his brothers guan yu and zhang fei... in one of the stories that i read... where zhang fei was disagreeing with liu bei trusting zhuge liang too much (this was when liu bei first acquired zhuge liang into his army) when the cao army was getting ready to attack...liu bei said "brothers are as arms and leg, cut one off and it's irreplaceable; wives and children are as clothing, replaceable".... so based on this i think liu bei would choose his brothers over liu feng ( who is adopted, which would make the decision easier)

well in my opinions that is....
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Unread postby GuangRong » Thu Jan 16, 2003 2:32 am

Liu Bei justify being a Emperor by the account that he had royal blood in him, he'll be undermining his own claim if he put Liu feng on the throne,Liu feng don't have any "divine" blood flowing in him...

ALso Most people would not take kindly in disrupting the Royal bloodline..
B'ocs bloodline is supposely given the mandate of Heaven, going againt the will of heaven, will incurred the wrath of heaven (unrest, famines, plague etc.).

====

The sucession rule for Monarchs is the same in a normal Family

In a extended chinese family, once it have reach a certain size, the younger sons wil leave to form a subsidary household. While the elder son will take over the Main estate and passed it down within his household.(i.e the main or Head household)

This main household will pass down the estate within itself (i.e to the eldes male Son, if not the eldest grandson etc. etc.)


It's only when there's no more male decedants in the Main Household that the estate will passed down to the head of the Subsidary Household ,which will become the Main household.....


If there's no paternal Male decendant lefts, than it would passed on to the Maternal grandson (not the son -in -law, even if he's willing to marry in to the family, his son will take precedence over him)

IN short
Main house hold
(father-->eldest son---->eldest grandson-->eldest great-grandson)
if it died out then
Most senior Subsdiary household will takeover as the head and continues...

=====

Though this may not be always the case, it's by and large the natural line of sucession in most part of the world.. though some allow daughters to takeover..

while others follow the family hierachy (i.e Father-->eldest son-->second son--->Eldest grandson by eldest son--->other grandsons by eldest son--->eldest grandson by second son-->other grandsons by seconds son...)

===

On a side note,
If I remember corectly , to curtail the Power of the Nobles, the Han institute a rule for each Noble rank pass down, it'll go down one notch..

For eg. a Prince will pass down the title of Duke to his son and the son inturn pass down the title of baron to his son...
though the rank can be earn back my meriteous service
But eventually some remote branch of the family will end-up as peasants..

Like Liu Bei(though Personally I think his claim is dubious)

=====

In Japan, Daimyos who dun have sons will adopt thier newphews to continue the Head Household..

As you can see NOn-blood relation really has no place... ..

A prime eg would be Hideyoshi, who despite having so many adopted Sons (who are powerful Daimyo themsevles) kicked aside all of them for his on flesh and blood (an infant when he died)

hope you all didn't fall asleep, and I apologise for veering off-topic..
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Re: Liu Bei successor's conflict, what do you think?

Unread postby Chen Kun » Thu Jan 16, 2003 7:48 pm

Mengdez New Book wrote:A question rise here, did Liu Bei purposely ‘trapped’ Guan Yu in the successor matter because he didn’t really want Liu Feng to hate him? Well, Liu Bei at the beginning should know well that nobody could involve in family matter because only those who are inside the family should know what to do.

but Liu Bei already considered Guan Yu and Zhang Fei as family right?so whats wrong with that? :?
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