Would the Battle at Red Cliffs be Changed if Guo Jia lived?

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Would the Battle at Red Cliffs be Changed if Guo Jia lived?

Unread postby Ender » Tue Jan 07, 2003 12:38 am

I think if Guo Jia was still alive Cao Cao could have won the battle. For one thing he never would have chained the ships togeather allowing the fire attack to work.
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Unread postby Ender » Tue Jan 07, 2003 2:25 am

Guo Jia would have controled those "million" troops of Cao Cao's better than wasting that many with those stupit ideas Cao Cao and his advisors created.
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Tue Jan 07, 2003 3:56 am

Sickness was prevalent among Cao's troops. In addition to that, the northern troops were not used to naval battles (specifically, staying on a wobbly vessel for days). Hence, IMO, the chaining up of Cao Cao's vessels was almost inevitable. The key was actually to avoid a disadvantageous confrontation with Sun-Liu alliance and it would be debatable as to whether Guo Jia would put forward this advice and Cao Cao would listen to it. (if I remember correctly, Jia Xu mentioned that but he was not heeded). :D
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Unread postby Wen Choung » Tue Jan 07, 2003 4:48 am

Maybe or maybe not...IMO, Guo Jia was pretty much thinking the same as Cao Cao. I think so because whenever any other adviser did not understand Cao Cao or did not agree with Cao Cao, Guo Jia was the only one who agreed or understood him.

Because of this, part of me thinks that Guo Jia would have fell for the same plots and ruses as Cao Cao did.

However, on the other hand, another smart person to look out for Wei might have helped. Personally, I would not have chained my boats together. It just sounds like a stupid idea no matter who advises me to do so. Also, Guo Jia might have just seen through Zhou Yu's plot to get rid of Cai Mao and the other guy who was training Wei troops for sea battle.
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Unread postby Ender » Tue Jan 07, 2003 10:45 pm

Guo Jia could have persuaded Cao Cao in my opinion. Cao Cao seemed to confide in him. But it is debateable weather Guo Jia would have seen through the plot.
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Unread postby twiztidscholar45 » Sun Apr 04, 2004 5:35 am

i think cao cao would have won, becasue cao cao even says in the novel that he wishes he was there andhe said they wouldnt have all these problems
In this battle strength alone will not save you
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Unread postby Devilrai » Sun Apr 04, 2004 9:24 am

Though what Cao Cao after his great escape if that only if he had Guo jia he would have not lost Chi Bi, though I do agree with Cao Cao but I also disagree. Yes, the chaining the ships together was a great idea but what Great Deer stated above that sickness was a factor even if they chained the ships together the troops were still on water. So Guo Jia being alive it would have helped Cao Cao in some ways more than one and he could have pervented the fire attack if he noticed. But overall Guo Jia could have reduced the loss of Cao Cao.
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Unread postby Zhilong » Sun Apr 04, 2004 10:05 am

He already knew the risks of the fire attack. He himself said he knew but said that the wind will not blow in their direction in this season. How will Guo Jia convince him otherwise?

Was Cao Cao sincere when he said that he would not lost if Guo Jia was there? Perhaps he was just making up excuses.

In any case i doubt he would have beaten the Sun-Liu Alliance even if Guo Jia was alive and heeded all his advice.
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Unread postby RyoHazuki » Sun Apr 04, 2004 12:11 pm

I think Guo Jia wouldn't have done anything diffrent.You see Cao Cao advance south was too try and intimidate the southern forces,it succeded with Liu Zong due too Cai Mao and very nearly succeded with Wu had it not been for Zhou Yu and Cheng Pu.

Many were considering surrender,due too Cao Cao's even bigger united force with Liu Biao's old army.However Zhou Yu and the ohers felt that Cao Cao could be EASILY beaten and this was before Liu Bei came into the picture,thus the ruse against Cai Mao the only real experienced naval commander in Cao Cao's force was put into play.Guo Jia may have seen through that,as for the fire attack I dont think Guo Jia could have seen through it.

1)The winds,were the main part of this plan.Guo Jia himself was not experienced in naval warfare and would not know the effect the fire/winds would have and would thus cast ideas of a fire attack aside.
2)Not much was known about Huang Gai,except his exploits with Sun Jian and defeating bandits.The defection of Huang Gai would seem possible too even Zhuge Liang (especially without much information on Huang Gai).
3)ALL other stratigists had failed in thier attempt to warn Cao Cao about Wu's naval prowess.
4)Time was on Wu/Shu's side and they had great advisors on what to do,which would amass a deadly combination that could take out the largest of armies (Pang Tong,Zhou Yu,Lu Su,Zhuge Liang)

I made a better post on this somewhere,I'll try hunt it down
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Unread postby RyoHazuki » Sun Apr 04, 2004 12:15 pm

RyoHazuki wrote:I think the reason Cao Cao beleived if he had Guo Jia,Chi Bi wouldnt be a failure is because Guo Jia would have advised against it.

As smart as Guo Jia was a combined force of Wu-Shu would have devestated Wei despite who was there at the time.Cao Cao was rejecting advise giving too him (was it Cheng Yu?) so it was much like Liu Bei at Yi Ling;Attacking out of arrogence rather than strategy.
And Suming up the forces even though Shu/Wu didnt have as much soildiers they had pleanty able officers.

Zhou Yu-Probably in my honest opinion the biggest threat in the combined force without Zhou Yu then there is a slight chance that Wei would have won but its only slight.

Huang Gai-Underrated,came up with the plan too hold off Wei by using Fire.

Zhuge Liang-At the time,not the greatest in war stratgies but that isnt enough too rule him out as a unable advisor.

Gan Ning-Like Zhou Yu,very kind to his troops and able to rally his force against any kind of odds.Proven too be pretty intelligent in warring afairs.

Zhang Fei-At this point his true abilties as a general are coming into fruitation.Brave yet smart he would serve as a strong unit in the war.

Cheng Pu-I think he was the co-commander in this battle,am I wrong? Anyway he is also a underrated general,however he is one of Wu's more able generals and serves in the Chi Bi battle very well.

Pang Tong-Was that chaining of boats really his idea? Even if it wasnt he would be a more important part of the allied forces.He who dares wins,Pang Tong in the past has shown this and I'd say if he and Zhou Yu were not present at the war then Wei would have an even larger chance of success.

Wu's Naval Experience-I think this is self explanitory but togther with Wu's experince and Wei's lack of Naval wars would serve the allied forces greatly.

Terrian-This was Wu's home land,which was WELL scouted out before hand.So even if the Fire attack did fail then there were pleanty of other places to map out able tactics.For example a rockslide.

So I think it's safe too say Wu alone were the winners of this fight.Shu "sealed the deal" and pretty damn well too


Here we go 8-)
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