If Guan Yu had not died

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Unread postby Elitemsh » Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:15 pm

This is historically speaking. If Guan Yu was spared by Sun Quan/ Lu Meng and sent back to Shu, I do not think that much would have changed. Yi Ling would probably still have happened since it was about the loss of Jing not revenging Guan Yu, a leader does not wage a major war due to the loss of one general (no matter how important). Liu Bei would still have lost at Yi Ling, I think. Zhang Fei would not have murdered by his suboardinates. Guan Yu and Zhang Fei would not have lived much longer anyway, the lifespan at this time was short and Guan Yu was already close to 60.
''I've never fought for anyone but myself. I've got no purpose in life. No ultimate goal. It's only when I'm cheating death on the battlefield. The only time I feel truly alive.'' ~Solid Snake
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Unread postby Guan Yunchang » Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:46 pm

If it was over something as simple as Jing, Liu Bei might have won. He might have approaced it better, gianed Zhuge Liang's support. Yi Ling was a quick a rash attack. It was two generals that died, as Yide's killers fled to wu. And you wouldn't understand the bond the brothers had.
Same old song, just a drop of water in an endless sea.
All we do, crumbles to the ground though we refuse to see.
Dust in the wind, all we are is dust in the wind.
Rest in piece Liao Hua.
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Unread postby Elitemsh » Thu Sep 01, 2005 6:24 pm

I am talking historically. In real history the three were never brothers and yes their relationship was likely to be close since they had been fighting together since the yellow scarves, however it was not as close as the novel makes out. Also, every great leader never puts personal feuds over their kingdom's ambition, Liu Bei was no exception. If Liu Bei had not taken Jing back it would have been an humiliation for the Shu forces and Liu Bei would have been seen as a walk over. The death of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei was definitely not the significant reason for waging war against Wu.
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Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Thu Sep 01, 2005 7:02 pm

The death of Guan Yu was definitly a factor in Liu Bei invading Wu but it was not the only reason. Liu Bei had to respond for the double insult of Wu taking his land and killing his most senior and highest ranked general. Now if Guan Yu lived and Zhang Fei as well then Yi Ling might have gone quite diffrently. Guan Yu and Zhang Fei were veteran generals and Zhang Fei esspecially showed to be an extreemly talented general. The Wu officers who were defending against Liu Bei's attack serverly underestimated Liu Bei which almost cost them the battle if not for Lu Xun taking the threat seriously. With Zhang Fei and Guan Yu joining Liu Bei then Liu Bei might have taken a diffrent approach and could have very well won the battle. The loss of Guan Yu was devistating for Liu Bei but i believe it was the loss of Zhang Fei which cost Liu Bei Yi Ling.
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Unread postby Guan Yunchang » Thu Sep 01, 2005 8:39 pm

elitemsh wrote:I am talking historically. In real history the three were never brothers and yes their relationship was likely to be close since they had been fighting together since the yellow scarves, however it was not as close as the novel makes out. Also, every great leader never puts personal feuds over their kingdom's ambition, Liu Bei was no exception. If Liu Bei had not taken Jing back it would have been an humiliation for the Shu forces and Liu Bei would have been seen as a walk over. The death of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei was definitely not the significant reason for waging war against Wu.


Who is to say they did not have a strong connection? The fact that they were not documented as sworn brothers holds no sway in my opinion.
Same old song, just a drop of water in an endless sea.
All we do, crumbles to the ground though we refuse to see.
Dust in the wind, all we are is dust in the wind.
Rest in piece Liao Hua.
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Unread postby Sun Gongli » Thu Sep 01, 2005 8:46 pm

I agree. Even though I am quite the anti-romanticist, I have to say that the oath of brotherhood seems very legitimate to me. We all know Sun Ce and Zhou Yu were sworn brothers, but there is never a mention of it.
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Unread postby redlion » Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:16 am

Would Liu Bei have allowed Sun QUan to take Jing Zhou? Guan Yu had used Jing Zhou to attack Fan castle. Shu wouldn't give in to Wu, that would show weakness. The water attack was a good idea, but he forgot the rear flank. Rather he should of had prepared to enter the castle, if captured he could use it to defend against Wu, the latter is obvious. And Wu would be in trouble without Lu Xun and Lu Meng. Then Wei would no longer have a position there. Cao Ren could be bargained for more territory or a person of lesser importance. As well Lu Xun may join Shu or be executed. Sima Yi could be captured as well.

As you see taking Fan Castle would impare Wei's southern influence and stop Wu's advance. A great place for a Shu advance on Wei and Wu. But if Shu had given Jing Zhou then how much further would Wu advance?
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Unread postby Guan Yunchang » Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:48 am

redlion wrote:Would Liu Bei have allowed Sun QUan to take Jing Zhou? Guan Yu had used Jing Zhou to attack Fan castle. Shu wouldn't give in to Wu, that would show weakness. The water attack was a good idea, but he forgot the rear flank. Rather he should of had prepared to enter the castle, if captured he could use it to defend against Wu, the latter is obvious. And Wu would be in trouble without Lu Xun and Lu Meng. Then Wei would no longer have a position there. Cao Ren could be bargained for more territory or a person of lesser importance. As well Lu Xun may join Shu or be executed. Sima Yi could be captured as well.

As you see taking Fan Castle would impare Wei's southern influence and stop Wu's advance. A great place for a Shu advance on Wei and Wu. But if Shu had given Jing Zhou then how much further would Wu advance?


Guan Yu remembered to protect his flank, but those protecting it were fooled by Lu Meng. Fan Kou was not the only place that wu could attack Jing. Lu Xun and Lu Meng probaby would not have been captured and Sima Yi isn't anywhere near the place at the time. The death of Guan Yu caused Shu's downfall, but there is no telling that they would have won if Guan Yu lived.
Same old song, just a drop of water in an endless sea.
All we do, crumbles to the ground though we refuse to see.
Dust in the wind, all we are is dust in the wind.
Rest in piece Liao Hua.
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Unread postby Sun Gongli » Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:29 am

redlion wrote:Would Liu Bei have allowed Sun QUan to take Jing Zhou? Guan Yu had used Jing Zhou to attack Fan castle. Shu wouldn't give in to Wu, that would show weakness. The water attack was a good idea, but he forgot the rear flank. Rather he should of had prepared to enter the castle, if captured he could use it to defend against Wu, the latter is obvious. And Wu would be in trouble without Lu Xun and Lu Meng. Then Wei would no longer have a position there. Cao Ren could be bargained for more territory or a person of lesser importance. As well Lu Xun may join Shu or be executed. Sima Yi could be captured as well.

As you see taking Fan Castle would impare Wei's southern influence and stop Wu's advance. A great place for a Shu advance on Wei and Wu. But if Shu had given Jing Zhou then how much further would Wu advance?


As Guan Yunchang said, it's unlikely that any non frontline commanders would be captured. The only reason Guan Yu captured Pang De was because Pang De's boat capsized. Even though Lu Meng was known to lead on the frontlines, he was ill and would likely not do so while ill. Lu Xun, similarly, was mostly cautious. Sima Yi as well. People like Ma Zhong, Pang De, or Pan Zhang may be captured, but not people like Lu Meng, Lu Xun, Sima Yi, Cao Ren, or Sun Jiao.
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and then there are those who allow the world to shape them.
It is in the balance that greatness is achieved."
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