If Guan Yu had not died

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Unread postby Tilik » Sat Nov 08, 2003 9:14 pm

White Horse General wrote:It was always my opinion that the Death of Guan Yu marked the falling point of Shu. It was like everything just went downhill from there and came apart at the seams.


mmm i hav to agree with ya there. at that time Guan Yu was the most powerful and skilled warrior of shu if not the whole of china. and so when he died it was just a bad omen
"When a worthy person is born into a turbulent world, he has to be a soldier and gird on a three-span sword to step on the mountains to mend the sky. I have not rendered great service. Why must I die before I have attained my desire?"
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Unread postby Andrew » Sun Nov 09, 2003 2:54 am

So Guan Yu is still around. If he is around I think Guan Yu would attack north, and Liu Bei and others would attack north as well along with Sun Quan. For a 3 fronted attack. Eventually they might win back most of the land and leave CaoCao with the land Yuan Shao once had. In maybe 230

Then Lord Guan would die, Wu would take the opprutonity and attack Shu, and take land then the 3 would be at another power struggle.
thats just how it might look my little crummy map.



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Xi Liang CCCCCCCCCCC
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Mon Jan 26, 2004 3:40 pm

Andrew wrote:So Guan Yu is still around. If he is around I think Guan Yu would attack north, and Liu Bei and others would attack north as well along with Sun Quan. For a 3 fronted attack. Eventually they might win back most of the land and leave CaoCao with the land Yuan Shao once had. In maybe 230

Then Lord Guan would die, Wu would take the opprutonity and attack Shu, and take land then the 3 would be at another power struggle.
thats just how it might look my little crummy map.



CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC.Lio Dong
CCCCCCCCCCCCCC
Xi Liang CCCCCCCCCCC
llllllllllllll ccccccccBo Haicccccccc
llllllllllllllll cccccccccccccccc
lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllJingSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllsssssssssssssssss
llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllssssssssssssssss
I guess.... Guan yu is one of the best generals in the three kingdom
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Unread postby Ma Zhi Xuan » Mon Jan 26, 2004 7:46 pm

Zilong of Shu wrote:I guess.... Guan yu is one of the best generals in the three kingdom

Despite his arrogance, Guan Yu was probaly the most experienced and skilled general there was in the era. If he was still around Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang would have given back Jingzhou to Wu to enforce their co-operation with each other and to avoid mistakes like the battle of Yi Ling.

With Guan Yu still being alive(despite his age), resources and men preserved from the avoidence of Yi Ling, Liu Bei would have survived a little longer as well. His actions would then be determined by the assassination of Zhang Fei. If the assassins(forgot the names :oops: ) fled to Wei, Shu would essentially attack Wei which was the main plan anyway :) , however if they'd gone to Wu, Liu Bei might of gotton suspicious about Wu as if that was a triumph to get rid of a potential threat of the future. Either way, yay or nay Liu Bei would immediately demand the heads of the two officers, if Wu comply they're allies, but if they refuse they're enemies.
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Unread postby Separation Anxiety » Tue Jan 27, 2004 12:36 am

If Guan Yu didn't die he probably would not have done much, especially in comparison to what he had already accomplished. He was extremely arrogant, and this could have caused a major failure, like his death in a duel, losing more vital land, or something to that effect. If he was not so arrogant, he probably could have done something really great, but no, he had to be an arrogant ass.
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Unread postby Wizardman » Tue Jan 27, 2004 1:34 am

If Guan Yu hadn't died, then it wouldn't have doen much. He became very arrogant with age, and was fairly old himself at the time, though that doesn't mean much. He probably could've made Yi Ling a more two-sided battle, but what after that? He'd probably die before the Southern Campaigns began.
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Tue Jan 27, 2004 1:41 am

Wizardman wrote:If Guan Yu hadn't died, then it wouldn't have doen much. He became very arrogant with age, and was fairly old himself at the time, though that doesn't mean much. He probably could've made Yi Ling a more two-sided battle, but what after that? He'd probably die before the Southern Campaigns began.

Speaking of Yi Ling... it seems like most of you are thinking in terms of what Guan Yu could have done if he had lived longer. Instead, maybe we should think in terms of what his death actually caused.

For example, if Guan Yu hadn't died, then Liu Bei wouldn't have had a reason to forget about the welfare of his kingdom and waste resources in a fruitless battle with a good potential ally. Even though Guan Yu would probably have just sat rotting in Jing until the end of his life, at least Liu Bei would have been able to concentrate on other things. Certainly, Zhuge Liang could have made use of a longer period of stability, and the material resources from Jing (food, weapons, etc.) may have had an impact on the success of the northern campaigns.
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Unread postby didier » Tue Jan 27, 2004 3:02 am

Ok here's what should have happened.

GY should have been more compassionate to Zhuge Jin, even perhaps accepted his offer to marry his daugher to Sun Quans heir.

GY should have been kinder to Fu Shiren and Mi Fang - he actually whipped them and sent them to guard East Jingzhou against Wu.

GY should have listened to Wang Fu's counsel and installed Zhao Lei to guard the river between Jingzhou and Wu - instead he used only FS and MF and Pan Jun, whom WF said was unfit.

GY should have been more careful to let his son fight and avoided those 2 arrows, especially the second poisonous ones, or at least allow time to heal - he didn't.

Thus once Wu started biting into Jingzhou when GY was destroying Wei he was trapped between a counterattack from Wei and his Jingzhou defence weakly surrendering to a well executed incursion by Lu Meng and Xun.

Thus GY was trapped and ultimately killed.

Cao Cao received his head but to avert Liu Bei's rage falling on Wei, CC gives GY an honourable burial, on Sima Yi's advice.

Thus LB forms a giant army to destroy Wu. ZF is killed in the process and LB makes the fatal mistake of not bringing Zhuge Liang to combat Lu Xun. LB loses, then dies, and all that can be accomplished by Shu for the rest of its existance is to conquer the Indians (Nan Man). After 40 years Wei wears down the others and unifies the land.

Wei Wins!!!
Guan Yu once said "I do not fear death, it is but my journey home". That comforts me for the distant future, but I want to stay and play Three Kingdoms games.
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Unread postby didier » Tue Jan 27, 2004 3:11 am

Now consider if GY had not made any of the mistakes listed. He would have conquer the "southern anchor" of Wei - taking Xiangyang and Fan. He would have held Jingzhou.
By this stage CC would probably have died, Shu would have all the momentum required to conquer the remainder of Wei. It had defeated Wei in Hanzhong, and now the centre of the land, and with Shu's fierce generals and Zhuge Liang instructing, they could have conquer Wei, then Wu, having two thirds of the land, and uniting the land under Liu Bei ( if he still alive ).

GY stays alive and...
Shu Wins!!!


However had LB used ZL to help destroy Wu after GY was killed, he could have easily avoided the fire attack and destroyed Wu's defences, conquered Wu.

Then with two thirds of the land, Shu could have conquered Wei and unified the land.

Shu Wins!!!

Isn't funny how such small things can so enourmously affect the course of history? :wink:
Guan Yu once said "I do not fear death, it is but my journey home". That comforts me for the distant future, but I want to stay and play Three Kingdoms games.
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Unread postby K'ung-Ming » Tue Jan 27, 2004 6:03 am

Zhou Tai wrote:
TheGreatNads wrote:Wow, I had no idea Guan Xing was a politician.
Indeed, you see thats what happens when a buyest (sp?) writer favours one kingdom over the others and changes history to his likeing.


'Biased.' As in, to have a 'bias.' :)
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