If Guan Yu had not died

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Unread postby Zhou Tai » Wed Jan 22, 2003 11:24 pm

TheGreatNads wrote:Wow, I had no idea Guan Xing was a politician.


Indeed, you see thats what happens when a buyest (sp?) writer favours one kingdom over the others and changes history to his likeing.

Guan Xing, Obviously didnt kill Pan Zhang at Yi Ling then if he was a politician, so more bs about getting Guan Yu's weapon and horse back.
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I think Guan Yu wouldnt of made much difference, now if you mentioned Pang Tong, he may of made alot of difference.

Liu Bei made a good and a bad move leaving the defense of Jing to Guan Yu.

Good: Having a well known general whos strength and virtue guarding the Jing area. The North probably knew Guan Yu too well.

Bad: Power Trip, Guan is a good warrior but a bad leader in political terms, he had too much power and practically was in charge, and ignoring Wu was fatal. (Marriage to his daughter, refusing relinquishing Jing and so on)

Because Guan was in charge what he said was set in stone and no one would argue, had someone like Zhuge been with him or above him, perhaps he wouldnt say things harshly or made rash decisions. (A tigers daughter for a dogs son)

But Zhuge couldnt cause he was stuck running Cheng Du, so if Pang Tong was around perhaps history may be different.
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Guan Yu's Recognition land wise was when he beat the 7 armies of Wei at Fan castle, or should i say when the weather beat the 7 armies of Wei.
What? Am I suppose to impress you with a phrase. ><
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Unread postby TheGreatNads » Thu Jan 23, 2003 12:00 am

Zhou Tai wrote:Bad: Power Trip, Guan is a good warrior but a bad leader in political terms, he had too much power and practically was in charge, and ignoring Wu was fatal. (Marriage to his daughter, refusing relinquishing Jing and so on)


Name one event where he proved to a good warrior. And no, the weather defeating the Wei armies doesn't count.
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Unread postby DarkAnthem » Thu Jan 23, 2003 1:28 am

TheGreatNads wrote:Name one event where he proved to a good warrior. And no, the weather defeating the Wei armies doesn't count.


In Guan Yu's SGZ bio it mentions him to have charged into Yan Liang's forces and killed Yan Liang in the mass of the soldiers. This indicates that he was an aggressive warrior to have charged into the enemy commander's troops and head straight for the commander, whether or not Yan Liang was an worthy opponent.

Whether or not he was a good warrior, it's hard to say, since aggressive doesn't necessary mean good. But as he survived through multiple battles with his aggressiveness, it is not unreasonable to assume he was a decent warrior.
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Unread postby Zhou Tai » Thu Jan 23, 2003 3:06 pm

His supposive reputation, was known to be a good warrior especially since Cao Cao highly regarded him, so he would be known throughout the North eg Wei. That what im assuming i personally consider him harshly overated - Due to the buyest favouring of Shu. As always :P
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Thu Jan 23, 2003 4:56 pm

Zhou Tai wrote:His supposive reputation, was known to be a good warrior especially since Cao Cao highly regarded him, so he would be known throughout the North eg Wei. That what im assuming i personally consider him harshly overated - Due to the buyest favouring of Shu. As always :P
Cao Cao did want Guan Yu to be with him Guan Yu also help Cao Cao score so victory against Yuan Shu.
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Unread postby Zhou Tai » Thu Jan 23, 2003 8:29 pm

Zhugeliang wrote:
Cao Cao did want Guan Yu to be with him Guan Yu also help Cao Cao score so victory against Yuan Shu.[/quote]

You mean Shao.....
Yes Guan Yu did help Wei by removing (permanently) Yan Liang and his service at Guan Du.
But then again you could credit the victory to Cao, who discovered Shao's supply depot, I believe.

To tell you the truth Cao Cao must of spent alot of dough to literally buy Guan Yu's service. And giving Red Hare was a big bad idea. :wink:
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Thu Jan 23, 2003 9:08 pm

He give him Lu Bu horse and try to give him a lot of gold.
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Unread postby Mengdez New Book » Sun Jan 26, 2003 1:50 am

Iznoach wrote:I don't think Jingzhou belonged to Wu, it technically should have belonged to Wei, and then Shu. After Liu Bei initially started attacking Wu on his revenge war, and he was winning, Sun Quan offered to give Jingzhou back to Shu. However, Liu Bei refused and kept up the attack (stupid move, but whatever), and common sense tells you that if his reason for attacking was just to regain Jing (and not out of revenge), then he would have accepted Sun Quans' offer. Therefore, obviously Liu Bei attacked out of vengeance.

But back on topic, I think that if Guan Yu wouldn't have been killed, Wu and Shu would've eventually clashed anyway. They were both plotting on each other, but when Wu finally sealed the temporary alliance with Wei, it was only a matter of time before they attacked Shu. Basically, I don't think anything different would have happened; anything major, anyway.


It is quite interesting that you have this view, anyway, i'm still not understand why you said Jing Zhou should belong to Cao Cao? Maybe it is because Cao Cao owned Jing Zhou before Chibi war after Liu Zong surrendered to him. Anyway, from what i know is Cao Cao only captured the lands from North of the Jing Zhou and never took the whole land. Before we go futher, do take note that Jing Zhou at that time divided into 8 cities, they are 南郡 (Nan Jun), 江夏(Jiang Xia), 武陵 (Wu Ling), 長沙 (Chang Sha), 零陵 (Ling Ling), 桂陽 (Gui Yang), 南陽 (Nan Yang) and 襄陽 (Xiang Yang). Cao Cao only captured Xiang Yang, Nan Jun and Nan Yang, most of this place were North of Jing Zhou. So, technically, Cao Cao never owned the whole Jing Zhou but he managed to conquer 江陵 (Jiang Ling), which was one of the important place in Jing Zhou.

After Chibi war, Cao Cao lost and retreated to Xu Chang, still he managed to took Nan Yang and Xiang Yang while Liu Bei owed four cities, they were Wu Ling, Chang Sha, Ling Ling and Gui Yang. For Sun Quan, it was quite unfair for him coz he was the one who gave out so much in Chibi war but only took Nan Jun and Jiang Xia. That's one of the reason why Sun Quan wanted to attack Guan Yu. Anyway, in the history, Sun Quan did lend Nan Jun to Liu Bei coz he knew Sun-Liu alliance quite important for his survival at that time after Cao Cao managed to conquered almost 10 states of China. Unfortunately, this alliance never hold long after Liu Bei took the whole Yi Zhou. Sun Quan felt that he was betrayed by Liu Bei because Liu Bei once rejected him to lend the Jing Zhou's road for attacking Yi Zhou or Ba Shu. Thing become even worst when Lu Shu past away and Lu Meng took the whole charge of armies in Wu. Lu Meng like Zhou Yu always wanted to conquer the whole Jing Zhou. Sun Quan never did that because at that time Zhou Yu past away and Lu Shu took charge of Wu. Unlike Zhou Yu, Lu Shu looked deep into Sun-Wu alliance coz he knew it was quite difficult for both of them to survive under Cao Cao if they didn't view the alliance seriously. Unfortunately, Lu Shu past away and Lu Meng entered the Sanguo stage, he ruined all Lu Shu's strategy, took Jing Zhou and captured Guan Yu.
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NIce

Unread postby Pei Yuanshao » Sun Jan 26, 2003 6:11 pm

A very well written response. That must've taken you a while to write.
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Unread postby White Horse General » Sat Nov 08, 2003 8:21 pm

It was always my opinion that the Death of Guan Yu marked the falling point of Shu. It was like everything just went downhill from there and came apart at the seams.
Sings we a dance of wolves;
Who smell fear and slay a coward.
Sings we a dance of man;
Who smells gold and slays his brother.
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