In defence of Sima Yi.

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Unread postby TheGreatNads » Fri Mar 14, 2003 12:34 am

Ender wrote:Now you are giving too much credit to Wei Yan. Sima Yi had the resources to crush the Shu army and never took advantage of it. If Wei Yan wasn't with Kongming on the campaigns it wouldn't have made a difference. The down right truth is Sima Yi had huge openings to destroy Shu and couldn't take advantage of them.


No you're wrong Wei Yan's defensive setup is what kept Wei from destroying Shu.

Ender wrote:He knew he was going to be ambushed. He should have prepared better for an attack. In fact this is another mark against Sima Yi. He sent a able general to his death when he should have suspected an ambush.


No he couldn't have prepared any better. He was ORDERED to pursue the Shu army, and he was killed by arrows. Explain to me what he could have done besides surrendering to Shu or disobeying orders. And yes it's a mark against Sima Yi, but I'm not saying Sima Yi was great. He had limited military ability, just like Zhuge Liang.
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Unread postby Lady Zhuge » Fri Mar 14, 2003 12:59 am

TheGreatNads wrote:Why couldn't Sima Yi do anything about it? Because Wei Yan put up an excellent defense. NO ONE ever broke through it.


Sima Yi was the one on the defense, not Zhuge Liang. The simple fact is that Sima Yi was either too cautious or just not Zhuge Liang's match offensively because he never took advantage, even with the upper hand.

TheGreatNads wrote:Zhuge Liang defeating Zhang He was a given. Zhang He didn't even have control of the situation he was in, he was forced to purue the Shu army and he was killed by arrows.


No, Zhuge Liang defeating Zhang He was NOT a given. Zhang He was an intelligent and experienced general. It's not like this was his first pursuit ever. He most likely anticipated an ambush, and yet was still victimized by it anyways.
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Unread postby Ender » Fri Mar 14, 2003 1:04 am

It's so great to see you back.... :)

TheGreatNads wrote:No you're wrong Wei Yan's defensive setup is what kept Wei from destroying Shu.


So Wei Yan planned ever defense that Shu put in place? Give me a break. Sima Yi could have defeated Wei Yan if he was anything of a strategist. I'm not saying Wei Yan was a bad general but Wei had the power to defeat him.

TheGreatNads wrote:No he couldn't have prepared any better. He was ORDERED to pursue the Shu army, and he was killed by arrows. Explain to me what he could have done besides surrendering to Shu or disobeying orders. And yes it's a mark against Sima Yi, but I'm not saying Sima Yi was great. He had limited military ability, just like Zhuge Liang.


When you suspect an ambush when an army is retreating you don't just run right up behind them. If I were in his postion I would take some fast troops and attack their flank. I would not just walk into a suspected ambush, disobey orders if needed.
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Unread postby Jimayo » Fri Mar 14, 2003 1:44 am

Lady Zhuge wrote:No, Zhuge Liang defeating Zhang He was NOT a given. Zhang He was an intelligent and experienced general. It's not like this was his first pursuit ever. He most likely anticipated an ambush, and yet was still victimized by it anyways.


He was expecting it. He argued with Sima about it cause he knew there would be an ambush there.

TheGreatNads wrote:No you're wrong Wei Yan's defensive setup is what kept Wei from destroying Shu.


Man, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

#1 No defense is perfect, you can always find a way to break it.

#2 Even the best defense is useless without a good commander running the show, and Wei Yan wasn't running the show during the one invasion by Wei.
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Unread postby Lady Zhuge » Fri Mar 14, 2003 1:48 am

Azrael wrote:
Lady Zhuge wrote:No, Zhuge Liang defeating Zhang He was NOT a given. Zhang He was an intelligent and experienced general. It's not like this was his first pursuit ever. He most likely anticipated an ambush, and yet was still victimized by it anyways.


He was expecting it. He argued with Sima about it cause he knew there would be an ambush there.


Okay, all the more props to Zhuge Liang and his soldiers then. Now even the surprise factor is taken away, and yet Zhang He was still defeated.
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Unread postby TheGreatNads » Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:13 am

Ender wrote:It's so great to see you back.... :)


:) Yeah it's nice to aruge with you again too :lol: :D

Ender wrote:If I were in his postion I would take some fast troops and attack their flank.


Since it's an ambush maybe he didn't know where Kongming's troops were. How can he attack someone when he doesn't know where they are?

Azrael wrote:#2 Even the best defense is useless without a good commander running the show, and Wei Yan wasn't running the show during the one invasion by Wei.


But that invasion was after Jiang Wei changed the defenses.
Last edited by TheGreatNads on Fri Mar 14, 2003 3:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Jimayo » Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:34 am

TheGreatNads wrote:But that invasion was after Jiang Wei changed the defenses.


I'm talking about the one where Kongming was in charge.
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:45 am

Lady Zhuge wrote:
That's just an excuse because Shu was weaker than Wei at that time(and weakness is really relative), so why couldn't Sima Yi do anything about it? According to the rules of war, if you strike the attackers when their supplies do not reach them and they are worn out, you will always win. Sima Yi never succeeded in taking advantage of this.


Please note that Sima Yi was a busy man and Shu's northern incursion was not the only thing on his portfolio. e.g. in the 4th month of 234 A.D., Zhuge Liang invaded Wei Nan and Sima Yi was dispatched to deal with him (and according to Wei Lue and Jin Shu, Sima Yi took a rather proactive role there despite being restricted by the Imperial Court Order). Subsequently in the 5th month of 234 A.D., Sun Quan invaded He Fei. Sima Yi was tasked to resist them and by the 7th month, Sima Yi had personally reached the He Fei's battlefield. Subsequently, Sima Yi went back to resist Zhuge Liang at Wu Zhang Yuan. (noted in Cao Rui's SGZ biography). Hence, Sima Yi was effectively dealing with 2 fronts and given also the fact that the Imperial court order instructed him to strictly defend the territory (noted in Xin Pi's SGZ bio), one could infer why Sima Yi did not take the risk and penetrate deep into Shu after Zhuge Liang died (or his army retreated). :D
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Unread postby Han Xin » Fri Mar 14, 2003 4:29 am

Lady Zhuge wrote:Sima Yi was the one on the defense, not Zhuge Liang. The simple fact is that Sima Yi was either too cautious or just not Zhuge Liang's match offensively because he never took advantage, even with the upper hand.

:lol: You should read what happen when Sima Yi was on the offensive when he attack Shu after the Zhuge Liang's 3rd northern campaign. Zhuge Liang for all we know hided behind his several hundred miles defensive line, and haven't got a clue on how to beat Sima Yi. Zhuge Liang in that scenario was like by your definition "was hiding like a gutless turtle waiting for Sima Yi's supplied to run out". :lol: Thanks god for the "rebel" of Shu that save Shu and probably Zhuge Liang's head.
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Unread postby Jimayo » Fri Mar 14, 2003 4:32 am

Han Xin wrote: :lol: You should read what happen when Sima Yi was on the offensive when he attack Shu after the Zhuge Liang's 3rd northern campaign. Zhuge Liang for all we know hided behind his several hundred miles defensive line, and haven't got a clue on how to beat Sima Yi. Zhuge Liang in that scenario was like by your definition "was hiding like a gutless turtle waiting for Sima Yi's supplied to run out". :lol: Thanks god for the "rebel" of Shu that save Shu and probably Zhuge Liang's head.


So what exactly happened in that campaign quentin?
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