Zhuge Liang vs. Sima Yi

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Re: Zhuge Liang vs. Sima Yi

Unread postby Mikhail » Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:25 am

Guan Yan wrote::lol: No fans of Sima Yi out there :lol:


I think you are forgetting someone... :wink:

It all depends on what you want to look at. People view Zhuge Liang in a very optimistic manner. And who wouldn't? This man carried the weight of a nation on his shoulders and was hampered by things beyond his control. But I don't think people are giving Sima Yi enough credit. While Sima Yi didn't do much, he did the right things - except send Zhang He to his death. That's gotta count for a lot especially when a lot of things are at stake.

While, I have no doubt that the majority would select Zhuge Liang over Sima Yi when creating an army, I would still favour Sima Yi just because I know I could count on him. He wouldn't have to go on unnecessary campaigns nor would he go to battle unless it was on his terms. Plus, he's a cautious man, which doesn't hurt.
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Re: Zhuge Liang vs. Sima Yi

Unread postby Guan Yan » Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:34 am

I guess Zhuge Liang had his mistakes as well.
Like leaving Guan Yu in Jing with no real support or intellegence servise with him.
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Re: Zhuge Liang vs. Sima Yi

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:59 am

But Mikhail you could say the same about why you chose Zhuge Liang to put in your army.......
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Re: Zhuge Liang vs. Sima Yi

Unread postby Little_Phoenix » Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:09 am

Guan Yan wrote:I guess Zhuge Liang had his mistakes as well.
Like leaving Guan Yu in Jing with no real support or intellegence servise with him.


Yeah only Ma Liang can Guan Yu depend on civil matter.....such pity. if only after conquer Yi Zhou, Zhuge Liang return to Jing Zhou. Liu Bei already have Fa Zheng and other able officers there.
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Re: Zhuge Liang vs. Sima Yi

Unread postby Lonely_dragon » Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:27 am

Little_Phoenix wrote:
Guan Yan wrote:I guess Zhuge Liang had his mistakes as well.
Like leaving Guan Yu in Jing with no real support or intellegence servise with him.


Yeah only Ma Liang can Guan Yu depend on civil matter.....such pity. if only after conquer Yi Zhou, Zhuge Liang return to Jing Zhou. Liu Bei already have Fa Zheng and other able officers there.


I think I have a slight difference in this matter.... Yizhou needs a reform civilly and militarily that is a task that I think only Zhuge Liang capable of. I think the more appropriate things to do is sending Fa Zheng to aid Guan Yu in Jingzhou. However I think this is not an issue here... oh well.. back to topic.

Well the novel Zhuge Liang pictures him as the almighty strategists that rarely makes mistakes so novelwise Zhuge Liang outshined Sima Yi by a lot... 8-)

However Historically speaking I think Sima Yi would have an edge on military affairs. though still Zhuge Liang might outwits him some times. Sima Yi is a good match for Zhuge Liang in military affairs however Sima loses in terms of administration and civil matters IMO. :)
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Re: Zhuge Liang vs. Sima Yi

Unread postby Mikhail » Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:33 am

Sun Fin wrote:But Mikhail you could say the same about why you chose Zhuge Liang to put in your army.......


Really? Zhuge Liang would have probably been the best person to ask about the lack of resources of the country, yet in 6 years he embarked on 5 northern campaigns that were eventually hindered by lack of resources. Worse yet, he would have known this and so in order for the Shu army to be win, he would require swift and decisive battles to secure the north. To me that does not show caution, because simply put, regardless of his knowledge about his deteriorating condition, he went on way too many campaigns that required way too many factors to be on his terms for the Shu army to be victorious. To go one step further, I'm even going to say that the Shu army (not country, but just the army itself) was lucky that Zhuge Liang died when he did, lest there be even more Northern Campaings - the likes of which Jiang Wei have never even seen...
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Re: Zhuge Liang vs. Sima Yi

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:42 am

Yes but unless Shu won some lnd they would fall eventually, Zhuge Liang knew this and so he tried his hardest to win a battle that would alllow his kingdom to survive. Kongming hd no choise about fighting espically not on his terms. Jiang Wei wasted resources and never came close to what little success Zhuge Liang achieved. He should of built up his army and ait for a more talented commander to come along to hand over too.
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Re: Zhuge Liang vs. Sima Yi

Unread postby Mikhail » Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:33 am

Sun Fin wrote:Yes but unless Shu won some lnd they would fall eventually, Zhuge Liang knew this and so he tried his hardest to win a battle that would alllow his kingdom to survive. Kongming hd no choise about fighting espically not on his terms. Jiang Wei wasted resources and never came close to what little success Zhuge Liang achieved. He should of built up his army and ait for a more talented commander to come along to hand over too.


So when Zhuge Liang does this its okay, but when Jiang Wei does it, it's not?

I think people are just too hung up on this messiah that would had appeared had Jiang Wei not commanded any troops at all. There was no evidence of one even coming at all so why do people keep bringing a man like this up. You said it yourself, Shu would fall eventually if they did not procure more land, so Jiang Wei HAD to try to win more land. What people seem to be forgetting was that Jiang Wei did have successes, and he was limited in the number of troops he could take into battle in his early campaigns.

But since I don't want to turn this into a Jiang Wei topic, I'll just stop with one more point: Jiang Wei had 9 expeditions in a total of 15 years. Zhuge Liang had 5 campaigns in 6, not counting the Southern campaign. Tell me, who had the higher frequency in amount of battles? That stat right there shows desperation in Zhuge Liang, not caution.
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Re: Zhuge Liang vs. Sima Yi

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:02 pm

Who won towns, kept the administration running and didn't end up with riots against him?
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Re: Zhuge Liang vs. Sima Yi

Unread postby Mikhail » Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:11 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Who won towns, kept the administration running and didn't end up with riots against him?


So he won towns... Did he win outright in his campaigns? But that is not the point of the argument. This isn't Zhuge Liang vs. Jiang Wei (even though it seemed like I wanted to make it like that). It's about how Zhuge Liang's northern campaigns were numerous and were basically in vain. I used Jiang Wei as a supportive argument to my point - about the frequency of Zhuge's campaigns - in an attempt to vindicate my previous point, that Zhuge Liang participated in unnecessary campaigns.
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