Zhuge Liang vs. Sima Yi

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Re: Zhuge Liang vs. Sima Yi

Unread postby VetaMega » Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:25 am

After Zhuge liang joins Liu Bei, Liu Bei gains provinces of his own. Before Zhuge liang joins Liu Bei, Liu Bei does not have a province and most of what he does is run away.
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Re: Zhuge Liang vs. Sima Yi

Unread postby PhoenixRising » Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:42 am

VetaMega wrote:After Zhuge liang joins Liu Bei, Liu Bei gains provinces of his own. Before Zhuge liang joins Liu Bei, Liu Bei does not have a province and most of what he does is run away.


Zhuge Liang just giving Liu Bei the inspiration (3 kingdom's plan). historically, it was Liu Bei's effort creating kingdom of Shu. he was a great commander you know? :D ...LGZ makes Liu Bei's character like a weak and kind ruler...actually he's charming, genius in politics and a great warlord. even Cao Cao claim him as his rival.
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Re: Zhuge Liang vs. Sima Yi

Unread postby rsetiawan » Mon Sep 07, 2015 3:28 am

Dong Zhou wrote:Mikhail, I was pointing out there was a considerable difference between the two. Shu has to attack Wei to win, go too defensive and you just end up waiting for the western defenders to be turned into an offensive effort or Wei, freed up by ability to weaken defences, fling everything at Wu. Or Wu wins and Shu is just Yi and Hanzhong. While Wei is strong and with the supply problems Shu had, winning outright is going to require a military genius and luck. Jiang Wan and Fei Yi went too far into defensive, Jiang Wei went too far on the army over any civil work at all, Zhuge Liang seems to have found a good middle ground. Problem was, without a brilliant tactical guy within the camp (if Peng Yang hadn't died or Huang Quan defected, might have stood a better chance) and Kongming pretty much learning on the job. I think Kongming did a decent job overall, got land, two out two Wei generals and Shu was strong internally.

Slightly different tack, Sima Yi seems to have been a competent commander (no bio so can't give a fair judgement) and an intelligent man so why did he struggled in the 4th and 5th NC's?


rising 6 years old thread :D
now speak bout geostrategy, greatest problem with shu is that after lost jing zhou their attacking path is so predictable, combined this with zhuge liang lack of ability in battlefield tactic (even hao zhao outsmart him 100 percent) failure ensured....
means, hao zhao, cao zhen etc is better tactician than zhuge liang :twisted:

also, could it zhuge liang continue offensive actually already beginning impoverished shu ? li yan fail to provide food, not because he is unwilling isnt it ? it just shu got poorer and poorer and their farm cant produce enough
which is why jiangwan and feiwei choose to be more defensive...
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Re: Zhuge Liang vs. Sima Yi

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Sep 07, 2015 1:58 pm

1) I don't think Cao Zhen was much of a tactician. An able and experienced commander who was better then an inexperienced Zhuge Liang certainly but don't see him as much of a tactician. Hao Zhao held a prepared fortress for a small amount of time, he showed siege defence flair but not sure it shows much about him as a tactician.

2) All evidence points to no, Shu was flourishing under Zhuge Liang with his one year on, one year off. Li Yan supply issues was Hanzhong roads being made impassable so he couldn't get supplies through
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Re: Zhuge Liang vs. Sima Yi

Unread postby IamStillNick » Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:28 am

There was an article called "Taking the North, a fool's errand?" or something to that effect. I believe it was on SunBofu's site? Does that still exist? It provides some info that Rsetiawan might find interesting.
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Re:

Unread postby Liúdòng » Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:26 pm

TheGreatNads wrote:Zhuge Liang was evil. He ordered Ma Dai to cut down Shu's best general at the time Wei Yan even though there was no proof of him being a traitor.


I find your shortsightedness sickening. If Zhuge Liang had to kill someone because that person disobeyed orders then that choice is right. Look at what happened to Zhang Fei, or Dong Zhou, or even the Han Dynasty as a whole. If you don't berate someone for treason then others won't fear the thought of doing it too. This sows the seeds that lead to more chaos, death, and mistrust.

I also find it sad that you ONLY consider Wei Yan as the best general of the time. There are plenty of high officers during said time that were equals to Wei Yan, if not by prowess then by strategy. Let us not forget one of Zhuge Liang's prize pupils, Jiang Wei. He rose through the ranks faster than many thought possible, mainly because of his military capabilities. Let us not forget that Jiang Wei himself became leader of all of Shu's military excursions and tried to finish what his master, Zhuge Liang, had started by reviving the campaigns northward into Wei.
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Re: Zhuge Liang vs. Sima Yi

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:32 am

Welcome to forum Liudong

1) GreatNads isn't around anymore (the few around from then would likely have evolved their views) and attacking a post from 2002 runs the risk of that.

2) Sickening? Really? That is really really over the top

3) I'm a little unclear if your referring to the novel (everything you said about Jiang Wei is from novel but I don't want to assume) or history.

The early years of forums like this, novel and history lines were blurred as people moved towards history. People didn't realize how inaccurate novel was and history came out bit by bit and most people's introduction was (via video games) through the novel and what you first learn sticks with you. Wei Yan's death has long had a novel overhang.

History clears Wei Yan of treason (or if Liang having any part in the death) and the general jerk behaviour of novel Liang to novel Wei Yan sticks. LGZ, by trying to make Wei Yan into a bigger baddie and Zhuge Liang having the amazing foresight, comes out wrong for a lot of people in the modern day and Zhuge Liang fels like a bully. There was also that people discovered the historical Zhuge Liang was not like the novel one and that led to those who novel portrayed as his foes getting an upswing.

I would say GreatNads was correct in that Wei Yan was Shu's best general at the time though.
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