If Xu Shu didn't leave Liu Bei

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If Xu Shu didn't leave Liu Bei

Unread postby jyang_99 » Tue Dec 24, 2002 7:32 am

What will happen to Liu then? Will the situation change as time pass? Will there be a Shu kingdom? Everyone knows that Zhuge is the key to Liu's success, but if Xu Shu didn't leave Liu, would Liu ever meet Zhuge?
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Unread postby Carp's Tail » Tue Dec 24, 2002 3:34 pm

I think Liu Bei would still have met Zhuge Liang. Sima Hui told Liu Bei about the "sleeping dragon" and the "young phoenix". Since Xu Shu was neither the dragon nor the phoenix (he's not the chicken or the duck!), Liu Bei would still look for Zhuge Liang and Pang Tong. When Xu Shu left Liu Bei, he insisted to Liu Bei that he visit Zhuge Liang's home again (some say that Xu Shu went to visit Zhuge Liang on the way to Cao Cao, and begged Zhuge Liang to join Liu Bei). This would seem to show that Xu Shu had a great respect and admiration for Liu Bei, even though his tenure as junshi was short-lived. He praised Zhuge Liang's superior ability in front of Cao Cao, which seems to show that Xu Shu wasn't afraid to acknowledge the skill of his better.

Since Zhuge Liang, Pang Tong, and Xu Shu were all friends and the students of Sima Hui, I don't think the latter two would feel slighted by Liu Bei naming Zhuge Liang the chief junshi (Pang Tong was given the deputy junshi position). It's possible that jealousy would erupt, but somehow you don't get that feeling based on what we know of these three advisors.
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Unread postby Yuan Seth » Wed Dec 25, 2002 4:03 am

After Xu Shu left for Cao Cao, what did he do? Anything extraordinary, be an officer, or do nothing?
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Unread postby Stefanos » Wed Dec 25, 2002 4:09 am

Sun Seth wrote:After Xu Shu left for Cao Cao, what did he do? Anything extraordinary, be an officer, or do nothing?


Absolutely nothing. During Redwall, Xu Shu petitioned Cao Cao for some troops to guard Changan against Han Sui and Ma Teng(who might rebel). That was taken from the book.

Carp's Tail wrote: Since Zhuge Liang, Pang Tong, and Xu Shu were all friends and the students of Sima Hui, I don't think the latter two would feel slighted by Liu Bei naming Zhuge Liang the chief junshi (Pang Tong was given the deputy junshi position). It's possible that jealousy would erupt, but somehow you don't get that feeling based on what we know of these three advisors.


Actually, bookwise, Pang Tong was quite jealous of Zhuge Liang. That jealousy drove him to his death because he ignored ZL's advice. History wise, I think it was ZL who was jealous of Pang Tong.
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Unread postby jyang_99 » Wed Dec 25, 2002 5:14 am

Sun Seth wrote:After Xu Shu left for Cao Cao, what did he do? Anything extraordinary, be an officer, or do nothing?


There is a Chinese proverb that says, "Xu Shu does not say a word when he enters Cao's camp." This is true to some degree, since Cao is responsible for his mother's death, Xu Shu swears that he will not give a single advice to Cao even if he is "imprisoned" by him... During the battle at Chi Bi, when Pang Tong comes to Cao's camp and suggests to link the ships together with iron chains, Xu Shu recognizes the potential effect, he talks with Pang just before Pang leaves the camp, but Xu promises he will not say anything about the down sides for linking the ships together... so we can see that Xu Shu hopes to see the decline of Wei, the death of Cao... because Xu doesn't want to give any advice to Cao, he does not have great power nor good position.....
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Unread postby jyang_99 » Wed Dec 25, 2002 5:22 am

Carp's Tail wrote:I think Liu Bei would still have met Zhuge Liang. Sima Hui told Liu Bei about the "sleeping dragon" and the "young phoenix". Since Xu Shu was neither the dragon nor the phoenix (he's not the chicken or the duck!), Liu Bei would still look for Zhuge Liang and Pang Tong. When Xu Shu left Liu Bei, he insisted to Liu Bei that he visit Zhuge Liang's home again (some say that Xu Shu went to visit Zhuge Liang on the way to Cao Cao, and begged Zhuge Liang to join Liu Bei). This would seem to show that Xu Shu had a great respect and admiration for Liu Bei, even though his tenure as junshi was short-lived. He praised Zhuge Liang's superior ability in front of Cao Cao, which seems to show that Xu Shu wasn't afraid to acknowledge the skill of his better.

Since Zhuge Liang, Pang Tong, and Xu Shu were all friends and the students of Sima Hui, I don't think the latter two would feel slighted by Liu Bei naming Zhuge Liang the chief junshi (Pang Tong was given the deputy junshi position). It's possible that jealousy would erupt, but somehow you don't get that feeling based on what we know of these three advisors.


It seems like Liu Bei depended on Xu Shu a lot, when Cao Ren attacked Xin Ye with the "Golden Lock" formation, Xu Shu demonstrated his vast knowledge on military by disrupting the formation with only Zhao Yun... when Xu was there, Liu Bei didn't seem to have the will to find Zhuge...

According to some historical records, Xu Shu was originally a fighter rather then a strategist, but he was so bright that after his lessons with Sima Hui, he was comparable with Zhuge and Pang... he was just like Lu Meng, a butcher who later became the prime minister of Wu :D
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Unread postby Yuan Seth » Thu Dec 26, 2002 4:13 am

And they blamed Pang Tong's death on Liu Bei's horse :lol:
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Thu Dec 26, 2002 6:17 am

jyang_99 wrote:
According to some historical records, Xu Shu was originally a fighter rather then a strategist, but he was so bright that after his lessons with Sima Hui,

Quite right. According to Wei Lue, Xu Shu was fond of swordplay when he was young.

Wei Lue, in Zhuge Liang's SGZ biography wrote:庶先名福,本单家子,少好任侠击剑
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Unread postby Yuan Seth » Mon Dec 30, 2002 6:06 am

Great Deer wrote:
jyang_99 wrote:
According to some historical records, Xu Shu was originally a fighter rather then a strategist, but he was so bright that after his lessons with Sima Hui,

Quite right. According to Wei Lue, Xu Shu was fond of swordplay when he was young.

Wei Lue, in Zhuge Liang's SGZ biography wrote:庶先名福,本单家子,少好任侠击剑


In Xu Shu's RTK VI bio it said "User of the Attack Sword" what's that supposed to mean?
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Unread postby Lance » Mon Dec 30, 2002 1:54 pm

He used a sword called the "Attack Sword" :lol: (I know....you'd think he'd think of a better name....but historically, Liu Bei called his blades "Double Sword", right?)
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