Zhuge Liang (SGZ)

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Zhuge Liang (SGZ)

Unread postby Iznoach, Legendary Dragon » Tue Jun 25, 2002 9:16 am

Was he as bad as most Shu haters say? I don't think so, and as a matter of fact I think he was quite an accomplished strategist. Discuss.
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Unread postby Anshi » Tue Jun 25, 2002 9:47 am

I don't think a man who loses 5 campaigns consecutively can be called an accomplished strategist.
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Unread postby Iznoach, Legendary Dragon » Tue Jun 25, 2002 9:51 am

Anshi wrote:I don't think a man who loses 5 campaigns consecutively can be called an accomplished strategist.


Point taken, but the vast majority of the actual battles (during northern campaigns) were won by Shu, it states in Jiang Wan's bio that supply difficulties were the reason for the eventual retreats every time, so this shouldn't be a discredit to Kongming's accomplishments.
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Unread postby Anshi » Tue Jun 25, 2002 10:06 am

Iznoach, Legendary Dragon wrote:Point taken, but the vast majority of the actual battles (during northern campaigns) were won by Shu, it states in Jiang Wan's bio that supply difficulties were the reason for the eventual retreats every time, so this shouldn't be a discredit to Kongming's accomplishments.


Actually, in the first two campaigns, Shu outnumbered Wei, but after taking a few border towns, they were driven back by the LESSER forces of Zhang He and Cao Zhen.
Also it doesn't say in Jiang Wan's bio that "every time Shu lost, it was because of supplies." It says:

Jiang Wan always felt that the reasons for Zhuge Liang’s failure was due to the difficulties in navigating the perilous terrain and the problems it posed for the transporting of supplies.


It just says Jiang Wan always felt that. It isn't mentioned in any other SGZ bios that I've read that anyone actually expressed this (including Zhuge Liang's), so one can assume that Chen Shou is merely pointing out Jiang Wan's opinion on the matter, NOT saying, "Shu would have crushed those dirty Wei bastards, if only they had more supplies!!!!"
Additionally it is universally recognized that Zhuge Liang is an administrative genius so I would think he would prepare pretty well for battles in terms of supplies, even if he knew he would lose...
I've explained Sima Yi's "genius" comment many times, it is a compliment to Zhuge Liang's administrative genius and not military genius (which further goes against the point that Shu lacked supplies...all it says is that he wasn't smart enough to overcome his enemy, and ran out of supplies). If Zhuge Liang isn't smart enough to realize he can't beat Wei, then you're giving him too much credit.
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Unread postby Iznoach, Legendary Dragon » Tue Jun 25, 2002 10:15 am

Okay, I stand corrected. It wasn't every time, and that's not what I really meant anyway. But since Jiang Wan was in charge of the homefront while Zhuge was away, I think his comments do matter in assessing the supply situation.

Zhuge was forced to beat a retreat because of supplies every time except the time when Huang Hao slandered his name in court, causing the idiot emperor to withdaw Zhuge Liang to the capitol when he was about to win. Anyway, I'm not asserting that he was a "great" strategist, just a good one and not horrible like everybody seems to think. It seems like with Kongming there's no gray area, he's either great or disgustingly horrible, and I don't buy that.
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Unread postby Anshi » Tue Jun 25, 2002 10:32 am

Iznoach, Legendary Dragon wrote:Okay, I stand corrected. It wasn't every time, and that's not what I really meant anyway. But since Jiang Wan was in charge of the homefront while Zhuge was away, I think his comments do matter in assessing the supply situation.

Zhuge was forced to beat a retreat because of supplies every time except the time when Huang Hao slandered his name in court, causing the idiot emperor to withdaw Zhuge Liang to the capitol when he was about to win. Anyway, I'm not asserting that he was a "great" strategist, just a good one and not horrible like everybody seems to think. It seems like with Kongming there's no gray area, he's either great or disgustingly horrible, and I don't buy that.


I think it was pretty good for a civil administrator (let's face it, that's what he was) to have any skills at generalship at all. However I think compared to any of the other greats of the era like Cao Cao or Lu Xun, Zhuge Liang is not that good at strategy.
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Unread postby Iznoach, Legendary Dragon » Tue Jun 25, 2002 10:36 am

Anshi wrote:I think it was pretty good for a civil administrator (let's face it, that's what he was) to have any skills at generalship at all. However I think compared to any of the other greats of the era like Cao Cao or Lu Xun, Zhuge Liang is not that good.


I'm gonna step slightly out of bounds for a second, since I don't have access to Lu Xun's bio, but in SGYY Lu Xun stated that he was glad Zhuge Liang wasn't there (at Yiling), because he was no match for him. I'm back in bounds now.
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Unread postby Anshi » Tue Jun 25, 2002 10:41 am

Iznoach, Legendary Dragon wrote:I'm gonna step slightly out of bounds for a second, since I don't have access to Lu Xun's bio, but in SGYY Lu Xun stated that he was glad Zhuge Liang wasn't there (at Yiling), because he was no match for him. I'm back in bounds now.


That never happened in real history, as Lu Xun had no reason to be afraid of a civil administrator.
I wonder if Liu Bei was glad Zhang Zhao wasn't at Yiling, or he would've lost even worse? :roll:
Lu Xun won numerous victories, while Zhuge Liang suffered little other than defeat.
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Unread postby Iznoach, Legendary Dragon » Tue Jun 25, 2002 11:06 am

Anshi wrote:That never happened in real history, as Lu Xun had no reason to be afraid of a civil administrator.
I wonder if Liu Bei was glad Zhang Zhao wasn't at Yiling, or he would've lost even worse? :roll:
Lu Xun won numerous victories, while Zhuge Liang suffered little other than defeat.


If he was only a civil administrator, did he not write the 24 texts on warfare?
Last edited by Iznoach, Legendary Dragon on Mon Feb 17, 2003 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Han Xin » Tue Jun 25, 2002 11:12 am

Now, before we could blow the myth of Zhuge Liang's greatness out of the water, we must established reality from myth first...

1. During Liu Bei time, Zhuge Liang never involved in military affair.
2. Zhuge Liang involvement in Chibi was minimal, he is just an envoy send by Liu Bei to mend the Sun/Liu alliance and nothing more.
3. From SGYY, it was Zhuge Liang that tricked Zhou Yu to take over Jiang Ling, and etc, and it was Zhuge Liang that plan the invasion of the four southern prefectures. However, that was never the case, in reality, Wu captured Jiang Liang and YiLing, and it was Liu Bei not Zhuge Liang who plan and execute the capture of the 4 southern prefectures...
4. Zhuge Liang was only act as an advisor during the re-enforcement of the YiZhou campaign. In reality Zhang Fei did all the planing and thinking for all three (Zhang Fei, Zhuge Liang, and Zhao Yun).
5. It was Fa Zheng not Zhuge Liang that help Liu Bei in the HanZhong campaign. Zhuge Liang was only a supply captain.
6. Zhuge Liang was never given the authority to take over the millitary after the death of Liu Bei. Zhuge Liang use the superiority of his rank to take control.
7. From the time of Liu Bei death til the first northern campaigns, Wei never send any sizable force to threaten Shu, the defeating of 5 points attack in SGYY was a myth. Nearly all the fighting during this period was done between Wei/Wu.
8. Zhuge Liang never captured any cities during his 5 northern campaigns. Three Wei cities deflect, but quickly captured by Zhang He.
9. Most of the big guy in Shu (Jiang Wan, Fei Yi, and Wei Yan) disagree either with Zhuge Liang northern campaign in general or how he conduct his northern campaigns.
10. Zhang He was killed by a random arrow while chasing the retreating Shu force, no battle were SAID to be given by Shu, and no trapped were actually mention... And NO, Sima Yi didn't sent Zhang He to his death...

Now...that all I could think up at the moment...
Last edited by Han Xin on Tue Jun 25, 2002 11:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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