Liu Biao, expansionist, or pacifist?

[Jimayo]

I realize we're sliding off topic, but I'm gonna answer that anyway. According to my sources (for Liu Biao, I have to go by SGYY), Liu Biao did indeed want to expand his territory, contrary to popular belief. I came by this realization by when Cao Cao's army had returned from the Yuan campaign, he said that he was sorry that he had missed his opportunity, and that sounds like he did want to expand. If he just wanted to sit on his haunches in Jingzhou, he wouldn't have said anything to that effect.

You're totally taking that quote out of context. He only said that because Cao Cao had returned from destroying the Yuan's and clearly set his sights on Jing Zhou. Liu Biao said that because had he attacked and defeated Cao Cao his own territory would of been safe. However, if Cao Cao left him alone, he would have been quite content to leave Cao Cao alone.

[Iznoach, Legendary Dragon]

I wouldn't be so sure of that. If you take it into account that earlier on, Zhang Xiu and Liu Biao attacked Cao Cao's territory, it makes perfect sense that he would still desire to attain those territories again.

[Jimayo]

I wouldn't be so sure of that. If you take it into account that earlier on, Zhang Xiu and Liu Biao attacked Cao Cao's territory, it makes perfect sense that he would still desire to attain those territories again.

Perhaps, but it was Zhang Xiu who actually attacked, and when Cao Cao retaliated, Liu Biao helped his ally.

[Iznoach, Legendary Dragon]

The way I read it, it said that while Cao Cao and his confederates were trying to finish off Yuan Shu, Liu Biao was already attacking with Zhang Xiu. It's true that he did mobilize further forces after Cao Cao retaliated, though.

[Jimayo]

The way I read it, it said that while Cao Cao and his confederates were trying to finish off Yuan Shu, Liu Biao was already attacking with Zhang Xiu. It's true that he did mobilize further forces after Cao Cao retaliated, though.

I could be wrong, it has been a while since I read the book, but if you are correct than it could have more to do with the fact that Cao Cao had invaded a nearby territory and he was worried Cao Cao may press further south.

[Iznoach, Legendary Dragon]

I could be wrong, it has been a while since I read the book, but if you are correct than it could have more to do with the fact that Cao Cao had invaded a nearby territory and he was worried Cao Cao may press further south.

That could be true, I must admit. However, I'm chosing to believe that he attacked with, and therefore the same reason as, Zhang Xiu. Therefore, since when they first drew up for battle, Zhang Xiu's revilement of Cao Cao led me to believe that he was attacking because he recognized Mengde as a rebel who was already holding the Emperor as a puppet. It's been a while since I read it also, let me check it out and get back with ya...

[Cao Ren]

you guys should have just pmed each other,but i'll add my view, i personally think that Liu Biao was an expansionist because he did want to join others to seize land and such things, but he missed his oppurtunities and before he knew it he was too old to think abotu such things.

[Zhou Mao]

His RTK 7 bio says it perfectly.. I think this is right, but it could be off.

"He had many opportunities [to attempt] to unite the land, but his indecisiveness was his downfall."

[Zhang Liao17]

Liu Biao had very little intention of taking over the land or he would have been much more aggresive. The attacks on Cao Cao wouldn't have occured if Zhang Xiu didn't throw in his lot and help. Liu Biao throughout the campaign was always weary of attacking and rarely made a move and I don't think you can credit him with any victory against Cao Cao. If his lust for land was so great, Liu Biao would also have slain Sun Ce when he was young and weak. Liu Biao started with a powerful base of land and generals but never used it, if Cao Cao or Liu Bei started with so much power its safe to say the land would have looked very different by 194 A.D.

[Zhou Mao]

We don't know that he didn't have any intention. It COULD very well be so, but I think most of the times that he had an opportunity, he wasted it due to not being able to decide.

*looks back*

GAH SENTENCE STRUCTURE DEMONS.

Well, see if you can decipher it.