What if Sima Yi and Zhuge Liang were together

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Unread postby Jimayo » Sun Dec 08, 2002 12:18 pm

Zhuge Kongming wrote:This is also why I wonder about Pang Tong’s talent. He had a great reputation, and he was obviously capable, but did he do anything to define himself as one of the greatest strategists of the era? He was brave, but a commander in his situation should not place their lives into needless danger. He was shot with an arrow while laying siege to a castle or fortress in Ba-Shu, if I remember correctly. As for the SGYY Pang Tong, his talent is obvious. On this one my thoughts are drifting more toward the historical Pang Tong.


Geez James, I think you give him too much **** for dying at Mienchu. As I recall, he was inspecting the city for weakness'. A thing many commanders have done throughout time(I can think of one time when a king himself walked around the base of a besieged city, King Stephen I of england).
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Unread postby Sam » Sun Dec 08, 2002 7:07 pm

Great Deer wrote:First off, when exactly do you think that Zhuge Liang was jealous of Pang Tong? Was it right from the beginning? Or was it some other time?


I feel Kongming started to get jealous of Pang Tong once he decided to aid Liu Bei in the conquest of Shu. Before Pang Tong had joined Liu Bei's services, Liu Bei trusted and respected Kongming more then any other. Once Tong joined Liu Bei, Kongming may of thought Tong would win Liu Bei's favour, and after hearing of his success thus far on the conquest of Shu, I feel he may of become Jealous, as he knew Tong was a very capable military adviser, and if Tong's plans went smoothly, Liu Bei's favour may go over to him. As I have said before, this is just a theory.

Great Deer wrote:IMO, this is a very generalising statement. If you look carefully, perhaps you can see that most of the discussions here are based on either the novel or the historical records. There is nothing wrong with coming up with one's own opinion. We do that all the time. However, IMO, it's more interesting if that opinion can be substantiated in one way or another.


Perhaps, but as you have said, it is very important to give ones opinion on something, instead of just going by facts. And I still feel they're many opinionated statements on this board, which are not just based on fact.

Great Deer wrote:Please look at Zhou Yu and Zhuge Liang's analysis of why the Sun-Liu alliance could secure a victory over Cao Cao at Chi Bi. Do you think the presence of Guo Jia could have averted all that? (this requires some in-depth discussion and perhaps we can do that in a new thread) :D


Yes, I truly do. Although Cao’s army weren’t well versed in navel affairs, and as a result became sick of war at sea, they were still a massive navel fleet, and one that would of certainly been hard to conquer. As Kongming and Zhou Yu said, the only way to overcome the attack from Cao was fire, and the only way the fire attack could have been as successful as it was, was if Cao linked his boats together. Now, Guo Jia was twice as smart as Cheng Yu, and would of easily seen through the scheme. As I have said before, Cao took great interest in what Guo Jia had to say, and in my opinion would have listened, and thus victory would of ensued. Now, Cao even said ‘If only Guo Jia were alive, this great loss could have been prevented’ or something among those lines. He must have had some reason to believe Guo Jia would have prevented the crisis; most likely because he knows he would of took into account what Guo Jia had to say.

I agree, we are now going WAY off topic, and perhaps we should create another thread to discuss this.
Last edited by Sam on Sun Dec 08, 2002 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What if Sima Yi and Zhuge Liang were together

Unread postby Mu Shu » Sun Dec 08, 2002 8:01 pm

Jiang Zhi wrote:What if they're together in one of either of the kingdoms......would they be.....unstoppable? Invincible couple? With a lord who actually listens too that is ^_^ like Cao Cao or Sun Quan :P


Napoleaon Bonaparte said "It would be better to have one poor general than two good ones." What he means is unity of command is very important. Any leader possessing both Sima Yi and Zhuge Liang should avoid using both for the same mission, i.e. keep them separated.

Therefore the whole is not necessarily greater than the sum of its parts.

Looking at SGYY, if Zhuge Liang and Pang Tong were joint generals on the same campaign disagreements would probably arise between the two and this would slow down and possibily even paralyze the army.
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Mon Dec 30, 2002 8:37 pm

ok Zhou Yu died because he was angry at Zhugeliang since he smarter than him. the diff between Zhugeliang and Sima yi is one is evil and one is good Sima Yi end up ruling china.
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Unread postby Jimayo » Mon Dec 30, 2002 9:32 pm

Zhugeliang wrote:ok Zhou Yu died because he was angry at Zhugeliang since he smarter than him. the diff between Zhugeliang and Sima yi is one is evil and one is good Sima Yi end up ruling china.


Again, reality. Zhou Yu didn't die from ZL's plot, and Sima Yi doesn't exactly qualify as evil. This isn't a book where everything is black and white.
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Unread postby TheGreatNads » Tue Dec 31, 2002 1:22 am

I don't get the comment about them having a lord that would actually listen to them like Cao Cao or Sun Quan. This is obviously an insult thrown at Liu Bei. It has been said that Liu Bei entrusted Zhuge Liang with everything. And the only time I remember Liu Bei not taking Zhuge Liang's advice was attacking Yi Ling. But his brohters had been killed and you can't blame him for that. So what is this suppose to mean? Or have there been other times when Liu Bei ignored Zhuge Liang's advice?
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Unread postby Cheng YU » Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:52 am

Then they'd probably fight over power. And Sima's treacherous sons will take over Shu. But Shu's weak, so sima clans wouldn't conquer china. There'll not be a Jin dynasty then.
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Sun Jan 05, 2003 5:55 pm

Again, reality. Zhou Yu didn't die from ZL's plot, and Sima Yi doesn't exactly qualify as evil. This isn't a book where everything is black and white.[/quote]reality a book is not black and white and u mean to tell me chinese people are lieing about the three kingdom u mean to tell me they waste they effort to tell about dumb stuff no this is reality this is what i think he did die from ZL but not because for his plots it was because he was jealous. and the Wei Yan thing he did revolt. Sorry about spamming. just pm me man.
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Unread postby twiztidscholar45 » Sun Apr 04, 2004 5:34 am

if they were together then i think wei would fall really early and... wu would be ablr to be taken very easily, but then there would be a change in history
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Unread postby Cao Zhi » Sun Apr 04, 2004 7:08 am

Why would Wei fall simply because Kongming and Zhongda were together? Both were excellent politicians but mediocre tacticans. Kongming's northern campaigns failed when he ran out of supplies. Sima Yi never managed to invade Shu or Wu. In all honestly, I believe that if both Kongming and Zhongd were working with Liu Bei, Shu would have been destabilized much faster. Zhongda was an ambitious goon who would have treated Liu Shan the way that the later Caos were. Zhongda and the Simas would eventually take power when Kongming died. If Jiang Wei opposed this as he probably would then their would be a civil war in Shu. What a finish that would be, especially when Wei starts to employ the talents of men like Hao Zhao, Guo Huai, and Deng Ai.

With Zhongda not in Wei, who knows what would have happened to Cao Pi? Most certainly Jia Xu and Liu Ye might have seen more action. Without having Zhongda as a crutch, perhaps Cao Rui would become a more assertive and responsible ruler and would have taught his sons how to rule. Who knows?

In any event, Zhongda and Kongming together would be the death of Shu, not Wei.
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