What if Sima Yi and Zhuge Liang were together

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Unread postby Stefanos » Fri Dec 06, 2002 9:07 pm

Tian Feng wrote:Really, Fa Zheng? Jia Xu, yeah, he beat back Cao Cao and other assorted warlords or something, Pang Tong was the Phoenix Fledgling, had to have been smart to earn that namesake, and Guo Jia predicted the demise of the Yuan clan. But Fa Zheng? I thought he was just a good civil officer?


It was said that if Fa Zheng were alive during the time when Liu Bei invaded Yiling, he could've prevented the Wu Fire attack. Fa Zheng's attributes were clouded when LGZ wrote SGYY.
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Unread postby Sam » Fri Dec 06, 2002 11:10 pm

Great Deer wrote:
Wang Ping wrote:Yes, historically, Kongming was jealous of Pang Tong, not Pang Tong of Kongming. Pang Tong was a much better strategist then Kongming could ever be.

I'm interested in how you derive this. Can you please elaborate further? :D


I would of thought you of all people would agree with me on this Great deer, with your knowledge of SGZ. In SGYY, Kongming was made out to be an extremely great strategist, when in fact his talents were in politics, not military. Kongming was jealous of Pang Tong's military knowledge, that's what I based my statement on. Although, Pang Tong was jealous over Kongming as he held a greater military position to him, despite Pang Tong being the smarter of the two, but that is indeed what caused his death.

Lance wrote:I'm interested in how you conclude that Guo Jia is one of the greatest advisors for the time Wang Ping....please do prove it....


Guo Jia was easily one of the finest strategists in the three kingdoms era. Although he didn't accomplish very much, that was due to him dying at a young age. Throughout his time when he was with Cao, I believe Cao never lost a single battle. After the red cliffs battle, Cao Cao even said that if Guo Jia were still alive, he'd of seen through the linked boats plot. Cao held Guo Jia in higher esteem than any other adviser he would have in the future, he even said ''Only Fengxiao knows my thoughts'' Showing how highly he respected him. Historically, it is well known that Guo Jia was one of the greatest strategists in the three kingdoms era.

Tian Feng wrote:
Wang Ping wrote:
Zhou Yu wrote:IMO, they were the four finest strategists in the three kingdoms era.

Really, Fa Zheng? Jia Xu, yeah, he beat back Cao Cao and other assorted warlords or something, Pang Tong was the Phoenix Fledgling, had to have been smart to earn that namesake, and Guo Jia predicted the demise of the Yuan clan. But Fa Zheng? I thought he was just a good civil officer?


Fa Zheng was perhaps underrated the most in SGYY. Just as Zhou Yu said, Liu Bei said the defeat at Yi Ling would of never took place if Fa Zheng were still alive. I don't actually know much historically about Fa Zheng, but I know he was one of the finest strategists in the era due to discussion on SOC, SoSZ, 3 Kingsoms, Gamefaqs etc.
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Unread postby Tian Feng » Sat Dec 07, 2002 1:02 am

Ah, i see. Yes, then I could see how Fa Zheng would be considered a good strategist.

But about him... Fa Zheng was a great strategist, but what about the others? Guo Youzhi, Yin Mo, Fei Wei, were those just civil officers or what?
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Unread postby Jimayo » Sat Dec 07, 2002 1:08 am

Tian Feng wrote:Ah, i see. Yes, then I could see how Fa Zheng would be considered a good strategist.

But about him... Fa Zheng was a great strategist, but what about the others? Guo Youzhi, Yin Mo, Fei Wei, were those just civil officers or what?


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Unread postby Lance » Sat Dec 07, 2002 1:32 am

Throughout his time with Cao, I believe Cao never lost a single battle

Don't forget the Zhang Xiu debacle.......
The most of your reasons are assumptions........HOWEVER, that is about all we can make with Guo Jia and Pang Tong. I posed the question not because I don't believe Guo Jia was good, btu because I wished to see why you held him in such high standing. Personally, my picks for the best four are as follows.....
1)Lu Su
2)Fa Zheng
3)Pang Tong
4)Jia Xu
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Unread postby DarkAnthem » Sat Dec 07, 2002 4:32 am

Wang Ping wrote:I would of thought you of all people would agree with me on this Great deer, with your knowledge of SGZ. In SGYY, Kongming was made out to be an extremely great strategist, when in fact his talents were in politics, not military. Kongming was jealous of Pang Tong's military knowledge, that's what I based my statement on. Although, Pang Tong was jealous over Kongming as he held a greater military position to him, despite Pang Tong being the smarter of the two, but that is indeed what caused his death.



I would like you to point out some proof of Kong Ming being jealous of Pang Tong? What passage do you derive from that Kong Ming was ever jealous? or the other way around, I don't see any proof of Pang Tong being jealous of Kong Ming in anything historically either.

Pang Tong is hardly even mentioned in Kong Ming's SGZ bio, and I don't see any evidence of him to be jealous of Pang Tong. I agree with you on Guo Jia, Fa Zheng, and Jia Xu, but not Pang Tong. Pang Tong had not much of any historical accomplishments. He was never involved in Chi Bi. His only notable performance in his SGZ bio was his three strategies regarding how to take Yi Zhou,

SGZ Pang Tong wrote:“阴选精兵,昼夜兼道,径袭成都,璋既不武,又素无预备,大军卒至,一举便定,此上计也。杨怀、高沛,璋之名将,各仗强兵,据守关头,闻数有笺谏璋,使发遣将军还荆州。将军未至,遣与相闻,说荆州有急,欲还救之,并使装束,外作归形;此二子既服将军英名,又喜将军之去,计必乘轻骑来见,将军因此执之,进取其兵,乃向成都,此中计也。退还白帝,连引荆州,徐还图之,此下计也。若沉吟不去,将致大困,不可久矣。


basically, plan 1: attack Cheng Du directly, plan 2, he comes up with something more complicated, plan 3, go back to Jing Zhou. His plans only helped Liu Bei in taking Pei Shui pass, nothing furthur, and truthfully his first and third plan is nothing near impressive, anyone could come up with those two alternatives.

That's all Pang Tong EVER did historically, I don't see any evidence of him being far superior than Kong Ming, in fact I think he's grossly overrated in SGYY along with Kong Ming. Btw, in his SGZ bio it says nothing of him being the "Pledging Phoenix". Even only looking at SGZ or ZZTJ I still think Kong Ming is better than Pang Tong.


Although he didn't accomplish very much, that was due to him dying at a young age. Throughout his time when he was with Cao, I believe Cao never lost a single battle.


So you attribute all of Cao Cao's success to Guo Jia? Doesn't seem too fair to me.

After the red cliffs battle, Cao Cao even said that if Guo Jia were still alive, he'd of seen through the linked boats plot. Cao held Guo Jia in higher esteem than any other adviser he would have in the future, he even said ''Only Fengxiao knows my thoughts'' Showing how highly he respected him.


Cheng Yu also warned Cao Cao numerous times about the fire attack.

For both Pang Tong and Guo Jia, of course you could say "if they lived longer, they would have done a lot more", but that's no way to prove that they are better than anyone.
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Unread postby Yuan Seth » Sat Dec 07, 2002 4:43 am

I think that Zhuge Liang is much better than Pang Tong...and never have read that they were rivals.....I like Jia Xu though, he should be on the new Dynasty Warriors along with Guo Jia...
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Unread postby Sam » Sun Dec 08, 2002 12:53 am

DarkAnthem wrote:
I would like you to point out some proof of Kong Ming being jealous of Pang Tong? What passage do you derive from that Kong Ming was ever jealous? or the other way around, I don't see any proof of Pang Tong being jealous of Kong Ming in anything historically either.

Pang Tong is hardly even mentioned in Kong Ming's SGZ bio, and I don't see any evidence of him to be jealous of Pang Tong. I agree with you on Guo Jia, Fa Zheng, and Jia Xu, but not Pang Tong. Pang Tong had not much of any historical accomplishments. He was never involved in Chi Bi. His only notable performance in his SGZ bio was his three strategies regarding how to take Yi Zhou,

SGZ Pang Tong wrote:“阴选精兵,昼夜兼道,径袭成都,璋既不武,又素无预备,大军卒至,一举便定,此上计也。杨怀、高沛,璋之名将,各仗强兵,据守关头,闻数有笺谏璋,使发遣将军还荆州。将军未至,遣与相闻,说荆州有急,欲还救之,并使装束,外作归形;此二子既服将军英名,又喜将军之去,计必乘轻骑来见,将军因此执之,进取其兵,乃向成都,此中计也。退还白帝,连引荆州,徐还图之,此下计也。若沉吟不去,将致大困,不可久矣。


basically, plan 1: attack Cheng Du directly, plan 2, he comes up with something more complicated, plan 3, go back to Jing Zhou. His plans only helped Liu Bei in taking Pei Shui pass, nothing furthur, and truthfully his first and third plan is nothing near impressive, anyone could come up with those two alternatives.

That's all Pang Tong EVER did historically, I don't see any evidence of him being far superior than Kong Ming, in fact I think he's grossly overrated in SGYY along with Kong Ming. Btw, in his SGZ bio it says nothing of him being the "Pledging Phoenix". Even only looking at SGZ or ZZTJ I still think Kong Ming is better than Pang Tong.


I think you should give Pang Tong's plans to take over Yizhou more credit. They weren't as 'basic' as you put it, and those very plans played a major role in the conquest of Shu. Can you give me one major accomplishment of Kongming's that rivals that? As I have said before, Kongming WASN'T a military adviser, his skills laid in politics, while Pang Tong's laid in military. My saying Pang Tong being jealous over Kongming was just a theory. Why do you think Pang Tong was so aggressive on the assault of Yizhou? Why was he so eager to join Liu Bei on the conquest of Shu? He wanted to prove himself to Liu Bei, and moreover, he wanted to attain a higher military rank then Kongming. My thinking Kongming was jealous of Pang Tong was also just a theory, after all, if Pang Tong was indeed a better military strategist then Kongming, wouldn't Kongming be worried that he'd win Liu Bei's favour? That if the conquest of Shu went smoothly, Liu Bei would trust more in Pang Tong then he would Kongming? I don't know what you think about that DA, but I think it makes perfect sense. Half of the things people say on this board are based on theory, not just on fact; I was stating my opinion, not the facts of three kingdom history.

So you attribute all of Cao Cao's success to Guo Jia? Doesn't seem too fair to me


No, I don't. Cao Cao was a fine strategist in himself, but he was slightly hot headed. As I have said before, he trusted Guo Jia more than anyone else, and saw great wisdom in his words. Cao Cao avoided disaster when Guo Jia was in his service for he would take great interest in what he had to say. Moreover, Guo Jia was a fine strategist in his own right. His great foresight prevented Cao great hardship with his predictions of the Yuan brothers. Also, he advised Cao to pursue the Yuan brother through the northern desert instead of concentrating on Jingzhou, his predictions again proved for the best. Cao Cao may of started to suffer defeat after Guo Jia's death for no-one had foresight that could match that of Guo Jia, and thus Cao didn't trust their advice as much, such as Cheng Yu's advice at red cliffs, warning him the what would happen if the enemy attack with fire, hence my saying Cao never suffered a defeat while Guo Jia was in his service.

Cheng Yu also warned Cao Cao numerous times about the fire attack.

I believe I answered that above.

For both Pang Tong and Guo Jia, of course you could say "if they lived longer, they would have done a lot more", but that's no way to prove that they are better than anyone.


I wasn't trying to say they were better than anyone, I was just saying they were good in their own right. And to conclude what I was saying for two strategists like Guo Jia and Pang Tong, who both died at an early age, wouldn't adding that conclude it in the best way? You could say I shouldn't have added it if I was trying to state they were better than someone, but I wasn't.
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Sun Dec 08, 2002 4:29 am

Wang Ping wrote:
I think you should give Pang Tong's plans to take over Yizhou more credit. They weren't as 'basic' as you put it, and those very plans played a major role in the conquest of Shu. Can you give me one major accomplishment of Kongming's that rivals that? As I have said before, Kongming WASN'T a military adviser, his skills laid in politics, while Pang Tong's laid in military. My saying Pang Tong being jealous over Kongming was just a theory. Why do you think Pang Tong was so aggressive on the assault of Yizhou? Why was he so eager to join Liu Bei on the conquest of Shu? He wanted to prove himself to Liu Bei, and moreover, he wanted to attain a higher military rank then Kongming. My thinking Kongming was jealous of Pang Tong was also just a theory, after all, if Pang Tong was indeed a better military strategist then Kongming, wouldn't Kongming be worried that he'd win Liu Bei's favour? That if the conquest of Shu went smoothly, Liu Bei would trust more in Pang Tong then he would Kongming? I don't know what you think about that DA, but I think it makes perfect sense.


First off, when exactly do you think that Zhuge Liang was jealous of Pang Tong? Was it right from the beginning? Or was it some other time?

Wang Ping wrote:Half of the things people say on this board are based on theory, not just on fact; I was stating my opinion, not the facts of three kingdom history.


IMO, this is a very generalising statement. If you look carefully, perhaps you can see that most of the discussions here are based on either the novel or the historical records. There is nothing wrong with coming up with one's own opinion. We do that all the time. However, IMO, it's more interesting if that opinion can be substantiated in one way or another.

Wang Ping wrote:No, I don't. Cao Cao was a fine strategist in himself, but he was slightly hot headed. As I have said before, he trusted Guo Jia more than anyone else, and saw great wisdom in his words. Cao Cao avoided disaster when Guo Jia was in his service for he would take great interest in what he had to say. Moreover, Guo Jia was a fine strategist in his own right. His great foresight prevented Cao great hardship with his predictions of the Yuan brothers. Also, he advised Cao to pursue the Yuan brother through the northern desert instead of concentrating on Jingzhou, his predictions again proved for the best. Cao Cao may of started to suffer defeat after Guo Jia's death for no-one had foresight that could match that of Guo Jia, and thus Cao didn't trust their advice as much, such as Cheng Yu's advice at red cliffs, warning him the what would happen if the enemy attack with fire, hence my saying Cao never suffered a defeat while Guo Jia was in his service.

Please look at Zhou Yu and Zhuge Liang's analysis of why the Sun-Liu alliance could secure a victory over Cao Cao at Chi Bi. Do you think the presence of Guo Jia could have averted all that? (this requires some in-depth discussion and perhaps we can do that in a new thread) :D
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Unread postby James » Sun Dec 08, 2002 10:31 am

As for what would become of Zhuge Liang and Sima Yi serving in the same army, it is an interesting scenario to envision. Together they could have created a powerful and secure nation. I happen to think the two of them were very much alike (yes, even in terms of loyalty). Here is an interesting scenario though, both of them worked hard to maintain power and authority. I do not think they did it because they were power hungry, I think their reason was actually more related to a desire for stability. It is easy to manage a nation when others cannot cause problems with your plans. I think if either saw the other as a possible problem in this sense, the results could have been disastrous.

Regarding Pang Tong and Zhuge Liang, I have to agree that there isn’t much cause for the belief that one was jealous of the other. They seemed to serve together well enough under Liu Bei. There were bound to be problems of course, but during Pang Tong’s short life there was nothing exceptional from which to draw a conclusion.

This is also why I wonder about Pang Tong’s talent. He had a great reputation, and he was obviously capable, but did he do anything to define himself as one of the greatest strategists of the era? He was brave, but a commander in his situation should not place their lives into needless danger. He was shot with an arrow while laying siege to a castle or fortress in Ba-Shu, if I remember correctly. As for the SGYY Pang Tong, his talent is obvious. On this one my thoughts are drifting more toward the historical Pang Tong.

I have to agree that Guo Jia was a wonderful strategist from the SGYY perspective. I think many people seem not to notice how helpful his actions were to Cao Cao over the course of his short life. Historically, again there is a little fog for me though. I do, however, submit that Cao Cao himself was among the finest strategists of the time, and Xun Yu was also very capable. Even given the absence of Guo Jia, I do not think Cao Cao really had a reason to suffer a horrible loss.
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