Analysis of Yuan Shao

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Re: Analysis of Yuan Shao

Unread postby zirroxas » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:40 am

Li_Shengsun wrote:Weird, the description on Guandu battle seems doesnt mention what Cao Cao do to Yuan Shao's men after the raid on Wu Chao, although i do remember read somewhere, where Cao Cao cut off the noses of Yuan Shao's dead soldiers and general, mixed them with noses and lips of an oxen and horses then send it to Yuan Shao's camp as form of intimidation.


It's a Cao Man Zhuan annotation, so snort a line of salt before indulging. Rafe rightfully brings up the logistical problems that such an endeavor would entail, given their exposed position and how much else they had to do that night.

Since the fall of Wuchao and the surrender of the troops under Zhang He and Gao Lan was probably more than enough of a morale shock on its own to produce the resulting rout, I think Rafe's writing this one off as just another cliched later addition is probably correct.
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Re: Analysis of Yuan Shao

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:30 pm

Li_Shengsun wrote:Weird, the description on Guandu battle seems doesnt mention what Cao Cao do to Yuan Shao's men after the raid on Wu Chao, although i do remember read somewhere, where Cao Cao cut off the noses of Yuan Shao's dead soldiers and general, mixed them with noses and lips of an oxen and horses then send it to Yuan Shao's camp as form of intimidation.

Its a shame that Yuan Shao slaughtered those 'bandits' instead of gaining their support. He could use some experienced fighter other than Qu Yi really. Especially during Guandu battle. But, judging his personality, even if he did gain those bandits support, they mightve ended like Lu Bu is.


I think it is in the ZZTJ but I didn't want to spend a paragraph or two explaining the bias of the Cao Man Zhuan (seen as a... hostile work which I believe was written by a Wu scholar) where it is from and why the claim is highly questionable for the Yuan case, it didn't feel relevant Yuan decision making and reaction. I probably would have done if a Cao Cao case and I can discuss it here

That requires the Black Mountain Bandits to give up their independence and surrender, not long after they had tried to seize Yuan Shao's lands. Even then, their version of surrender was "we keep our local independence, bow our heads and won't attack you" so wouldn't have been that helpful long term
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Re: Analysis of Yuan Shao

Unread postby Chalmers » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:17 pm

Are we sure this Black Mountain Bandits conditional surrender went down as you described it by the way? I'm simply asking since it doesn't add up somehow in my mind.
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Re: Analysis of Yuan Shao

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:58 pm

Welcome to the forum Chalmers

Chalmers wrote:Are we sure this Black Mountain Bandits conditional surrender went down as you described it by the way? I'm simply asking since it doesn't add up somehow in my mind.


Sorry, which bit are you referring to? The partial surrender to Emperor Ling's Han?
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Re: Analysis of Yuan Shao

Unread postby Kongde » Fri Feb 22, 2019 4:06 am

Dong Zhou wrote: Yuan She was tortured and killed in 179 but the Yuan clan were untouched.


Would you happen to know the reason for this? I assume it would've been put in there, but I am kind of curious about this. How was it that only Yuan She was tortured and killed? I don't know if it has any relevancy, but in that same paragraph from where I quoted, you mentioned that Yuan Feng died in 179. Would this happen to have any relation as to why Yuan She was tortured and killed?
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Re: Analysis of Yuan Shao

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:14 pm

Kongde wrote:
Dong Zhou wrote: Yuan She was tortured and killed in 179 but the Yuan clan were untouched.


Would you happen to know the reason for this? I assume it would've been put in there, but I am kind of curious about this. How was it that only Yuan She was tortured and killed? I don't know if it has any relevancy, but in that same paragraph from where I quoted, you mentioned that Yuan Feng died in 179. Would this happen to have any relation as to why Yuan She was tortured and killed?


I didn't as didn't feel it was relevant to Yuan Shao's life. New Director of Retainers Yang Qiu accuses leading eunuch Wang Fu of corruption and treason then brought down his faction as an attempt to weaken the eunuchs, Yuan She's fall would indicate he was seen as part of Wang Fu's faction

There is no connection mentioned in the histories and given the major honours given on his death, it is doubtful he was damaged by Yuan She's fall.
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